Avro 504G ?

[stan]

The caption says a gunnery Avro, I'm told it might be a 504G. I've never seen a picture of a whole one ( ) but here is one being worked on. Anyone have a picture of a whole one or know more about the Beast?

[centurion]

The 504G was a variant on the 504B fited with guns and a bomb rack for training by the RNAS but the aircraft shown is in fact an Avro 540 which was a modified 504K produced in very small numbers post war as a gunnery trainer This photo appears in Avro Aircraft by Roger Jackson - and may be copyright!

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Stan,

Here are some images of different Avro 504s, hope they help.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

2 more captioned as being the Avro 504G

LF

[centurion]

Given that the Avro 504G was an RNAS variant of the 504 B the tail on these looks wrong - the RNAS Avro 504 B,C,E. F & H did not have a comma tail which was essentially an RFC feature (for example the Avro 504 D which was the RFC version of the 504 C had the comma tail) These photos look more like a 504 J or K. There is a photo of a single seat Avro 504 with a bomb-rack (with a single bomb) and a 504 B type tail and cowling on page 37 of Avro Aircraft which is clearly mis captioned as a 504J - I suspect that this is a 504G

[centurion]

Checking other sources confirms that the 30 Avro 504Gs all had the RNAS type tail

[centurion]

Stan,

Here are some images of different Avro 504s, hope they help.

Regards,

LF

A mixture of 504A,J&K. All with comma tails. The one with the very big cowling is a 504J one off.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Interestingly still haven't found any pics of a complete one in service.

Stan,

If you are referring to the Avro 504G, yes, I agree photographs of this one seem to be elusive! Anyway, still looking.

Regards,

LF

[centurion]

Well there were only 30 of the beasts looking very like late versions of the 504 B which came in one and two seater varieties. I still think that the photo I have referred to is it as it has a bomb rack and unless some one knows different only the 504 G was so fitted.

[mickdavis]

I'd venture to suggest that the Avro 504K gunnery trainer photo originated with the Air Historical Branch collection. There are a lot of such posed photos around, showing WRAFs at work - all taken for publicity (recruitment?) purposes during the war. The Avro seems to have been a Parnall-built machine - the enlarged centre spot to the fuselage roundel and the serial in small white characters were a company hallmark. If so, that would place it in the batch D9281-D9380, delivered to Contract A.S.41535 from May 1918. The fuselage number 67 is typical of those applied at Fighting Schools. There were armed Avros around with variations to the gun mounting. D7616 had a Scarff ring mounted directly onto the upper longerons while some of those used in N Russia during 1919 had a simple pole mounting.

The Avro 504G was intended as a bombing/gunnery trainer, with provision for a Scarff ring mounted on the upper longerons. Even those which were unarmed can be distinguished from 504Bs, which had the rear cockpit sides brought below the main level of the longerons. Most 504Gs served at Cranwell, and its Freiston sub-station, but the final 10 were used, unarmed, at the RNAS preliminary flying schools at Redcar and Chingford. The photo from the CCI Archive shows 504G N5809 at Redcar during late 1917/early 1918.

[centurion]

I'd venture to suggest that the Avro 504K gunnery trainer photo originated with the Air Historical Branch collection. There are a lot of such posed photos around, showing WRAFs at work - all taken for publicity (recruitment?) purposes during the war.

Only problem is that the Avro 540 based on the 504K was POST WAR

[stan]

Only problem is that the Avro 540 based on the 504K was POST WAR

Were the WRAF's still likely to be doing this post-war? How post-war are we talking here? And what's more you wouldn't believe how often people have captioned 504's as 540's.

[stan]

This website: http://britishaviation-ptp.com/avro504_deriv.html lists the 540 as "(possibly based on the Type 536). The design was done for Japan and some built there.^"

^{And credits: "Thanks to Eric Harlin for clarifying the origin of the Type 540."}

[mickdavis]

Only problem is that the Avro 540 based on the 504K was POST WAR

That was my point. If the photo was wartime, the machine would have been a 504K. The 540 designation must have come in sometime during summer 1919, by which time most WRAFs had returned to civilian life.

[mickdavis]

A further thought. I know Eric Harlin and he's probably forgotten more about Avro 504 variants than all us think we know. If he uses the expession 'possibly based on the Avro 536' then it's probably safe to assume that no-one knows what one actually looked like. If it was a 536 derivative, then the posed shot with WRAFs is a 504K. The 536 had such a noticeably wider fuselage that the extended width between the centre-section struts would show.