Crashed aircraft; another I/D request.

[Mike Cross]

Thought to be the same aircraft in these two photos. Any chance of an identification ? This pilot only qualified at the end of the war so photos believed to be training accident(s). Poor quality photos but the best presently available.

MC

[centurion]

Bristol F2B (Bristol Fighter) At the end of the war it was also intended to employ them as Corps Recce aircraft to replace the RE8 and crews were being trained up on it. If you could ask those guys to move over to one side we could see which version of engine it had and possibly tell if it was one of these!

[mickdavis]

Is the serial number readable on the original print? If it is, I may have something on the machine.

[Mike Cross]

Many thanks. I am working on a manuscript left by this man who left the QOOH for the RFC (as did several others) and he describes training in a rotary-engined Avro biplane, then Bristol fighters (fitted with Rolls Royce falcon three engines), then Kamels (as spelt). He also refers to an SE5 with a Hispano engine, next a Salamander with a 300 'Bentley'. I hope this all makes sense; not an area I know anything about.

MC

Mick - I am hoping to track down an original print of this photo but, at the moment, this is as good as it gets.

[centurion]

The Avro would have been either a 504J or 504K (much the same so far as the pilot was concerned). The Bristol was the F2B fighter which used the RR Falcon I (190 hp) RR Falcon II (220 hp) and RR Falcon III (275 hp). The Kamel was obviously the Camel but I'm surprised at the mis spelling. The Sopwith Salamander was an armoured ground attack variant of the Sopwith Snipe and indeed did have a Bentley Rotary - but a 230 hp B.R.2. A handful had reached France for operational evaluation (try them out on the enemy) before the armistice

[mickdavis]

The background to the top photo shows the wall buttresses of a 1918 pattern GS under the lower port wing. By 1918 only certain training stations had BFs as part of their intended establishment. The shed rules out Rendcomb (38 TDS) so it could have been Witney (33 TDS) or Bicester (44 TDS).However the Salamander reference is interesting. Only one is known to have gone to the BEF for evaluation but examples were with the Experimental Stations at Orfordness and Martlesham Heath. 96 Sqn at Wyton (again the shed rules that station out) received at least 2 before the Armistice, 157 Sqn at Upper Heyford was equipped with them and 28 TDS at Weston-on-the-Green was scheduled to have 36 + 36 Avros. My gut feeling says Oxfordshire but more information is needed.

[Mike Cross]

Thanks Mick. Oxfordshire does feature strongly in this man's story but the manuscript, written in later life, mentions many other places. By some strange coincidence he was actually born in Rendcomb ! When he returned from France to join the RFC he was initially sent to Blackdown(for inoculations), then on to Budely (where more food was seen at one meal than a whole day's ration in France). After leave he then went to Hastings for lectures plus infantry drilling 'up and down those steep roads'; he was eventually excused the drill having convinced the MO that marching was not a good idea for a cavalryman especially as he 'suffered from frozen toes' ! Next stop was Reading and then on to a sadly unnamed Flying School where he experienced the aircraft mentioned earlier. His Aviator's Certificate, or Fédération Aéronautique Internationale, is dated November 12th 1918 - it is in fact marked as a 'Duplicate' but it seems to confirm that he qualified too late to get back to the Western Front.

[centurion]

The background to the top photo shows the wall buttresses of a 1918 pattern GS under the lower port wing. By 1918 only certain training stations had BFs as part of their intended establishment. The shed rules out Rendcomb (38 TDS) so it could have been Witney (33 TDS) or Bicester (44 TDS).However the Salamander reference is interesting. Only one is known to have gone to the BEF for evaluation but examples were with the Experimental Stations at Orfordness and Martlesham Heath. 96 Sqn at Wyton (again the shed rules that station out) received at least 2 before the Armistice, 157 Sqn at Upper Heyford was equipped with them and 28 TDS at Weston-on-the-Green was scheduled to have 36 + 36 Avros. My gut feeling says Oxfordshire but more information is needed.

The first Salamander prototype went to France for service trials in May 1918 but according to J M Bruce¹ by 31st October 1918 a further two were with the RAF in France and in all the RAF had 37 Salamanders on charge

¹ War Planes of the First World War Vol 3

[mickdavis]

The first Salamander prototype went to France for service trials in May 1918 but according to J M Bruce¹ by 31st October 1918 a further two were with the RAF in France and in all the RAF had 37 Salamanders on charge

¹ War Planes of the First World War Vol 3

You're correct about there being 2 Salamanders on BEF charge by the end of October. One was the 4th prototype E5432, which went out on 16 September and the other may have been E5429 which crashed there earlier in the year, while undergoing operational evaluation, and for which I've seen no record of deletion. A third Salamander went out, after the Armistice; F6524, which was passed to the French at Villacoublay for their evaluation.

It would seem unlikely, however, that any of these 3 would have been seen by someone undergoing training in the UK during the latter half of 1918.

[centurion]

The point I was making as tactfully as possible was one should not be too dogmatic about where Salamanders were to be found. They seem to have got around (one even went to the USA). However the guy in question cannot have known too much about them if he thought they had a 300 hp engine.

[mickdavis]

The point I was making as tactfully as possible was one should not be too dogmatic about where Salamanders were to be found. They seem to have got around (one even went to the USA). However the guy in question cannot have known too much about them if he thought they had a 300 hp engine.

During late 1918, Salamanders were only just coming off the production lines and into RAF service, albeit with problems of structural integrity. As at 31 October, within the UK, there was 1 in store, 31 at AAPs or with contractors, 1 with a squadron mobilising (96 Sqn), one with an Area (i.e. TDS or one of the few surviving Training Squadrons) and 1 under control of the CTD. Only the two we've discussed were with the BEF. By the time of the Armistice, 96 Sqn had F6532 and F6534. 157 Sqn began receiving them during November - F6503, F6504, F6505, F6506, F6509, F6510, F6511, F6512, F6513, F6514, F6515, F6516, F6517, F6518, F6519, F6520, F6521, F6522, F6523, F6524, F6525, F6526, F6527, F6528, F6533 and F6602. F6524 was re-allotted from the squadron to the CTD. F6533 went to the USA during late 1919 and survived until at least 1926: it may have been the Salamander reported with the number P75 at McCook Field. Not dogmatic, based on documentation.

[Mike Cross]

Many thanks for this additional information gentlemen. If/when I get a better photo I will examine it closely as suggested above. Your help has been appreciated.

Mike

[Mike Cross]

I did ask this question in another topic but now have better photographs. This piece of wood along with a confirmed aircraft boss was kept by the RFC man referred to above and later by his family as souvenirs of his service. But as yet it cannot be identified with any certainty - a variety of suggestions have been made, some plausible, some maybe not. It is 51 1/2 " long and 10 1/2" at the widest point. The 'front' is varnished, the 'reverse' plain.

I am still seeking better photographs of the crashed aircraft in the hope of making a better identification as suggested earlier.

MC