Webley? Very Flare Pistol

[Khaki]

I have just ordered a British Flare Pistol, by the looks of it, it appears to be a Webley, top break,brass frame, round wood grips and flared muzzle (is that an add on?) as it appears to be an extra length sweated on. From the markings it is dated 1918, the rest I can't tell as I am going by a small sale photo. What model is this? how many different British models saw GW service? and how were they carried I know that there was a holster/case but have never seen one worn in a photo, was it a habit to carry the pistol in a bag with the flares.?

thanks

khaki

[Lancashire Fusilier]

khaki,

Is this your Webley Flare Pistol ?

The flared muzzle is an attachment, and can be removed.

Flare Pistols had their own type of over the shoulder carry case, which was much larger than the normal revolver holster.

Attached, are some holster photographs from my Collection to give you an idea of the difference in size between a Webley .38 revolver/holster and that of a Flare Pistol case.

Regards,

LF

[Khaki]

Thanks LF,

As always, excellent information with first class photographs, yes that appears to be the model that I have ordered, interesting that there is a removable barrel extension, (I did not know that) what is the purpose behind that? maybe range, shooter protection?

regards

khaki

[Lancashire Fusilier]

khaki,

Here is a Webley Flare Pistol without the muzzle extension.

Also, the Flare Pistol case I showed you was just for size comparison, my understanding, is that the early WW1 Webley Flare Pistol cases were similar to those of say a Webley Mk.VI holster, only much bigger, I shall try and find a photograph for you.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

khaki,

Here is a version of an early WW1 Webley Flare Pistol Case, the riveted case/holsters are often seen on Naval issued items, rivets doing better with sea salt water than stitching.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thanks LF,

what is the purpose behind that? maybe range, shooter protection?

regards

khaki

khaki,

Never having owned one or fired one, I can only guess that the muzzle extension may have something to do with the type of flare being used for a specific purpose, or the range.

Hopefully, some one will know the answer, as I would also be interested to know.

Regards,

LF

[johnboy]

Would the extension muzzle be needed when firing parachute flares?

[Khaki]

Years ago I had to use a flare pistol(work related) that fired an explosive star shell, it had a steel frame and barrel and the grips looked like a Mk6 Webley I don't know the vintage, but I remember thinking that it looked like WW2 vintage, anyway it had a short barrel and I am thinking that the extension is either for a longer shell, maybe parachute like johnboy has said, or maybe with the longer barrel with a 'belled muzzle' to protect the shooter when firing magnesium illumination flares. I have also fired those and have seen some bad burns caused by the magnesium dribbling onto the shooters hand.

khaki

[Wardog]

I only have a deactivated one with muzzle extension. I have never removed the extension nor could I. Can we confirm that 'back in the day' once fitted these could be removed? I thought it was a permanent adaptation? Regards, Paul.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I only have a deactivated one with muzzle extension. I have never removed the extension nor could I. Can we confirm that 'back in the day' once fitted these could be removed? I thought it was a permanent adaptation? Regards, Paul.

Paul,

Having seen the Webley Flare Pistol both with the barrel extension and without the extension, I assume they are detachable. Perhaps, your's is just stuck fast having been attached for many, many years.

Regards,

LF

[Torrey McLean]

According to Robrt M. Gaynor, Jr. in his book Flare Guns & Signal Pistols, the Mark III signal pistol (the version without the bell mouth) was approved in 1910 and was used extensively during WWI. Regarding the No. 1 Mk III* model (the version with the bell mouth), he writes as follows: "Due to safety considerations, the design was modified during the war with a longer flared barrel to prevent hands from being burnt from inadvertent firing before the gun breech was fully closed. This modification became the No. 1 Mk III* model."

Regards, Torrey

[Gunner Bailey]

The short and long barreled versions were made into WW2 and these are steel. The flared barrel on the longer version is not removable and is just a longer barrel flared at the end. I have a short barreled one at present. Quality in WW2 was much lower than in WW1 and they were treated more as a disposable item and were included in aircraft dingy kits, which of course did not exist in WW1. Many vehicles were also fitted with a storage clip inside for them, again something that didn't exist in WW1. John

[Khaki]

Thanks to all for the useful information.

khaki

[Khaki]

Hello LF,

I now have the W&S flare pistol and in answer to your question, yes it's the 'bell barreled type that you showed in post #2. Its dated in the proofs '18' but doe not have any unit marks, not that that surprises me. Very nice addition to my bits and pieces. I sometimes think of the number of deaths that these items caused same as the officers whistle when used as a signal for going over 'the top' and for artillery SOS firing in the case of the flare pistol.

Thanks to you and all contributors for the responses

regards

khaki

[johnboy]

Is the barrel all one piece?

[Khaki]

Hello johnboy,

Good question, to answer that I would have to say, I cannot remove the bell section and I think that is what you mean. With regard to the manufacture, the bell section is a slightly different color tone to the remaining barrel. This suggests to me that the end section is an addition but not intended to be removed making it the MkIII *.

regards

khaki

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Hello LF,

I now have the W&S flare pistol and in answer to your question, yes it's the 'bell barreled type that you showed in post #2. Its dated in the proofs '18' but doe not have any unit marks, not that that surprises me. Very nice addition to my bits and pieces. I sometimes think of the number of deaths that these items caused same as the officers whistle when used as a signal for going over 'the top' and for artillery SOS firing in the case of the flare pistol.

Thanks to you and all contributors for the responses

regards

khaki

khaki,

Pleased to hear you have taken delivery of the Flare Pistol, which I am sure you will enjoy having in your collection. As you say, when handling these items it makes you think back to their original users/owners, who they were and the circumstances surrounding their use, which in many cases, was death and destruction beyond our comprehension.

Regards,

LF

[johnboy]

From a war diary. Seems he was not happy with the flare cartridges!

[Khaki]

From a war diary. Seems he was not happy with the flare cartridges!

Screenshot001 very pistol.jpg

Thanks johnboy

Interesting read ,yes I have heard that there were problems, and I have heard a recording of a British soldier speaking of 'the lilies of the dead' ( flares) suggesting that the German flares "were much better than ours". I don't know too much about flare cartridges British -v- German but if the cartridges were paper,, as shotgun shells were for many years then I can understand some of the problems they may have had. In my experience paper shells tend to swell if they get damp and will not fit the chamber and if they do, they are hard to extract.

I am sure 'Tony' could tell us more about cartridges.

khaki

[MikeMeech]

Hi

The USAS appear to have had rather more problems with Signal Pistols and their cartridges. In 'The US Air Service in World War 1', Ed. Maurer Maurer. For example Page 238 has 2nd Lt. R H Wessman (Armament Officer, 50th Aero Squadron) mentions:

"The pistols would never eject. The ejector was worthless. Besides every cartridge had to be calibrated through the pistol it was to be used in, for the cartridges and pistols were very irregular."

On page 239, 2nd Lt. Robert A Kohless (Ordnance Officer, 1st Aero Squadron) reports:

"Very pistols were found to be faulty in construction; main springs were as a rule too weak and ejectors often failed to eject exploded cartridges."

and:

"Some trouble was experienced with Signal flares. Many flares when received were found to be mouldy and damp."

I have yet to find this as a general problem in the RFC/RAF.

In documents there is mention of dampness in the infantry flares (ground burning not Very Light cartridges) which the infantry would carry one or two of in their pockets, these were for 'showing the line' to Contact aeroplanes, the use of old small cocoa tins to carry them in is suggested to prevent damage.

Mike

[Khaki]

Hello Mike,

Interesting reading. I wonder what nation's pistols and cartridges they were referring to, if they were flying French or British aircraft at the time they may have been using what ever came with the aircraft?

khaki

[Gunner Bailey]

Here's the more utilitarian WW2 version. Much less interesting but I expect it just did the job. John

[MikeMeech]

Hi Khaki

According to 1st Lt. Evan T. Mathis, Armament Officer, I Corps Observation Group, on pages 233-234 of the previous mentioned book, states:

"The Very pistol ammunition was absolutely unsatisfactory due to old age and improper storage before reaching the squadrons; all this ammunition was obtained from the French government."

This appears to point the blame at the French, however, it is unlikely that the cartridges went from the 'French government' direct to the US squadrons, so it may have depended on in what conditions, and for how long, the USAS had been storing the munitions before issue to the squadrons.

Mike

[4thGordons]

I just ran into one of these. I thought it might look good hanging from the mannequin sporting an officer's tunic, assuming I can find a decent lanyard for it.

It is a MkIII, 1916 dated. No unit markings but nice clear manufacturer's (Webley) marks and proofs.

I suppose now I shall have to seek out a MkIII* to go with it......

Chris

[Khaki]

Very nice find Chris,

Those early dated models are hard to find, lucky you.

khaki