Orthochromatic Issue - Gordon Highlanders Piper

[gordon92]

I am hoping to attract the attention of the orthochromatic photography experts. 4thGordons? MBrockway?

The below posted photo is of a 2nd Bn Gordon Highlanders piper taken at Peshawar c1904-1907. As can be seen, the yellow lines on the kilt hardly show. However, the yellow lines on the hose display quite prominently. Can someone please explain the reason for this contrast? Is it possible that the reflectivity of the material as well as the hue factors into the filtering?

Mike

[Muerrisch]

I think I am a junior expert on ortho.

Yes the reflectivity of the material seems to matter, and also the white content, in other words pastel shades. Similarly, blue should show pale but is often mixed with black and this darkens it of course.

We had an example recently of doublet cuffs on a yellow-faced battalion showing black for the ORs and nearly white for the officer ...... material AND dye, I think.

What colour should your subjects facings be, as a matter of interest?

[gordon92]

I think I am a junior expert on ortho.

Yes the reflectivity of the material seems to matter, and also the white content, in other words pastel shades. Similarly, blue should show pale but is often mixed with black and this darkens it of course.

We had an example recently of doublet cuffs on a yellow-faced battalion showing black for the ORs and nearly white for the officer ...... material AND dye, I think.

What colour should your subjects facings be, as a matter of interest?

Thanks for the clarifications, Grumpy.

The facings on the collar and cuffs of this piper are green, the same as the body of the garment. Contemporarily, this shade has been referred to as "piper green." This is the shade of green that was selected for the #1 Dress coatees of the Highland regiments circa 1952-1981. The Lowland regiments wore blue doublets during that period. In 1981, all the Scottish regiments standardized on "archer green" doublets which was a duller and darker shade than piper green.

[4thGordons]

Yes the reflectivity of the material seems to matter, and also the white content, in other words pastel shades. Similarly, blue should show pale but is often mixed with black and this darkens it of course.

We had an example recently of doublet cuffs on a yellow-faced battalion showing black for the ORs and nearly white for the officer ...... material AND dye, I think.

I would agree - both material and dye matter, as would (presumably) the temperature of the light source (flash lighting traditionally being more blue than daylight - although to be honest I have no idea what sort of temperature flash powder as would have been used in this period would be!) . I have my GG Gfather's parchment discharge papers (from the 2nd Bn Gordons) signed in Peshawar in 1907.

Chris

[MBrockway]

Reporting for duty as requested :-)

Do we know what the actual colours were in the 2nd Gordons pipers' kilt hose? I've always thought Gordons wore red/black diced.

What we're assuming is the yellow stripe could possibly be blue - the orthochromatic film makes blue come out startlingly bright - look at this orthochromatic picture of a pair ribbon ...

Colour and panchromatic 'mock ups' have been inserted for comparison. Note how the thin white and blue stripes of the BWM appear almost identical. The yellows, oranges and reds all come out very dark.

Chris is also correct that the textiles/materials/dyes also seem to influence the apparent tone.

HTH

Mark

[Garron]

I was talking to a friend who used to work at Kodak about differences in photo tones a week or two ago and he said different batches/manufacturers of films (or in this case) plates can display colours differently depending on the mixture used, slight variances in the mixtures can cause alterations in the tones displayed.

Gaz

[4thGordons]

I was talking to a friend who used to work at Kodak about differences in photo tones a week or two ago and he said different batches/manufacturers of films (or in this case) plates can display colours differently depending on the mixture used, slight variances in the mixtures can cause alterations in the tones displayed.

Gaz

This is absolutely correct and it is even more complex than that because there are several stages:

"reality"---> captured on film(film/plate chemicals - influenced by light source, camera setting) --->Neg developed (timing/temp/chemicals)--->Printing (paper/timing/filters/chemicals/paper) ----> aging/fading over the last 100+ years.

However, the real issue of ortho/pan is at the first stage where the plate/film will only react to a particular part of the spectrum and while all sorts of variation in how those are printed and developed and change over time (hence the tonal variation we see in prints).... the key distinction is the first, the reaction of the chemicals on the film/plate to the entire spectrum of visible light (panchromatic) or partial spectrum (orthochromatic) and whilst the appearance of these images when printed can vary massively the original reaction is vital in what one sees.

This is, at least, my layman's understanding.

Chris

[4thGordons]

the orthochromatic film makes blue come out startlingly bright - look at this orthochromatic picture of a pair ribbon ...

Mark

One of the best/most common demonstrations of this is period views of French Army blue uniforms which can sometimes look almost white.

Chris

[MBrockway]

In my earlier post, I asked ...

Do we know what the actual colours were in the 2nd Gordons pipers' kilt hose? I've always thought Gordons wore red/black diced.

Anyone know the answer? The chap in the photo is not in spats and isn't wearing the hose I'm used to seeing on Gordon Highlanders ... even the pipers who are often a law unto themselves in highland regiments ;-)

Identifying the colours likely to be there, "in reality" as Chris puts it, will help us work out what may be going on.

Cheers,

Mark

[gordon92]

Couldn't let a question about a bagpiper go without contributing something...

Gordon Highlander cartoon found on t'interweb, provenance unknown

Thanks for the entertaining cartoon. The piper is, however, dressed as a Seaforth Highlander.

[gordon92]

Reporting for duty as requested :-)

Do we know what the actual colours were in the 2nd Gordons pipers' kilt hose? I've always thought Gordons wore red/black diced.

What we're assuming is the yellow stripe could possibly be blue - the orthochromatic film makes blue come out startlingly bright - look at this orthochromatic picture of a pair ribbon ...

post-20192-1268755995.jpg

Colour and panchromatic 'mock ups' have been inserted for comparison. Note how the thin white and blue stripes of the BWM appear almost identical. The yellows, oranges and reds all come out very dark.

Chris is also correct that the textiles/materials/dyes also seem to influence the apparent tone.

HTH

Mark

Mark,

Thanks for reporting in and providing the mock-ups. You are correct that all Gordon Highlanders wore red/black hose pre-1939 except for pipers. Pipers wore hose of Gordon tartan consisting of a green/blue background with yellow overstripes. I am quite certain that we are not seeing blue stripes on the image. Seaforth Highlander pipers wore similar hose in MacKenzie tartan while everyone else used red/white hose.

Mike

[gordon92]

One of the best/most common demonstrations of this is period views of French Army blue uniforms which can sometimes look almost white.

Chris

Chris,

In studying the piper's photo more closely, I now notice that the yellow lines on the kilt are very faintly visible. Since the photo is about 1907, is it possible that some early version of a panchromatic film may have been used?

If it is feasible to scan them, I would love to see your GGfather's discharge papers posted.

Mike

[MBrockway]

In studying the piper's photo more closely, I now notice that the yellow lines on the kilt are very faintly visible. Since the photo is about 1907, is it possible that some early version of a panchromatic film may have been used?

Yellow is still visible on orthochromatic film, it is just very dark - see the yellow in the medal ribbons in my sample.

[gordon92]

Yellow is still visible on orthochromatic film, it is just very dark - see the yellow in the medal ribbons in my sample.

Yes, I do see your point, Mark. I am observing that the yellow kilt lines on the original image seems to be displayed in a light hue but very faintly in contrast to the yellow lines on the hose that come through much more brightly.