What was a 'younker' on a ship?

[seb phillips]

Posted this one earlier on a different forum, but it's probably more appropriate here:

I'm puzzled by this one - the rank terns up on the Tower Hill memorial, and the nearest I've been able to track down the term it means 'boy who turned the ships sand clock'. But none of the sailors listed were young. I'm wondering if it means some kind of unskilled help - the opposite of able seaman?

Any input welcome!

[War13Memorial]

An old dictionary I have says

Younker. A young fellow or a stripling.

I would say in the Merchant Navy, an old word for a Cabin Boy.

Billy

[centurion]

It was a cadet or apprentice (a brassbounder) originally on sailing ships of the larger lines. Some one who was under training. I suspect that given the inevitable demands for sailors in the war older men than usual might be apprenticed but usually it would be a teenager. A glimmer in my aged brain says it was American from the Dutch

[seb phillips]

Thanks gents, that makes a lot of sense.

[AlanCurragh]

A tad off-topic, and following on from Centurion's comment, but I wonder if it comes from the same root as the old Dutch "Jonkheer" meaning "young gentleman" - which lives on through the ages as the area of New York known as Yonkers

[centurion]

Cadets like Midshipmen were destined to become ships officers and were frequently referred to as young gentlemen (and sometime as things quite different) and this was what I remembered. Spot on I think Alan. Possibly from the Dutch East India Company many of whose ways were borrowed by the newer British East India Company and others

[Liz in Eastbourne]

A glimmer in my own aged brain recalled this in medieval or early modern English literature, so I looked it up in the OED, and their earliest references are early 16th century, from Dutch or German.

It was used in British English meaning a young nobleman, a young man generally, a child, youngster etc through to the end of the 19th century, at least.

With the meaning 'a boy or junior seaman on board ship (obsolete)' there are examples from 1595 to 1818.

Liz

EDIT

It would be related to Dutch Jonkheer as Alan says.

There's a ref. dated 1818 ' He served as a younker and midshipman' which may suggest a differentiation between the two.

[seb phillips]

I'm just curious about how a 64 year old could be listed as a Younker in 1914. I'm wondering if the term was just used for an unskilled seaman helping out because of the shortage of men? And the term does seem restricted to the Great Yarmouth fishing fleet!

[centurion]

On a Dutch East Indiaman a boy would serve as a cadet or apprentice before becoming a midshipman (or equivalent Dutch rank) in his late teens if he proved suitable. I think the British East India Company had the same (they like the RN had midshipmen)

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I'm just curious about how a 64 year old could be listed as a Younker in 1914. I'm wondering if the term was just used for an unskilled seaman helping out because of the shortage of men? And the term does seem restricted to the Great Yarmouth fishing fleet!

On that, the OED is useless!

It does sound as if it's a local use as you say.

Liz

[centurion]

It's a specific job on a Herring Drifter. see this description from Tom Brown who worked on the boats before WW2

"I remember goin' after my first berth; old skipper, my father was with him. My father was mate, and he said, "Come on, boy," he said, "if you're goin' to sea, you'd better go and see old Cripp." Everybody had nicknames around our way. I had to go and see old Cripp Green, the skipper. And I went to him, "Skipper, I want a berth. Can you give me a berth?" He sort of looked at me, "Ah," he said, "your father bin a good chap with me," he said. "You can come." I was a big boy. I was a big brawny boy, so I went younker. Not as cook… And the younker, he was cast off; he had to take off the fastenings that held the nets to the warp. Well, I took them off. I went [as] that."

Not sure however I'm much wiser

I assume the men you're interested in are

Samuel John Hewett
Jones, Harry Lewis

both Younkers on a Yarmouth boat mined in 1914. Another crewman is listed as Whaleman - what did a whaleman do on a herring drifter?

If you'd given more info in the first post I could have found it a lot faster.

[roel22]

A tad off-topic, and following on from Centurion's comment, but I wonder if it comes from the same root as the old Dutch "Jonkheer" meaning "young gentleman" - which lives on through the ages as the area of New York known as Yonkers

Another Dutch word for jonkheer was jonker - very close to younker.

Roel

[centurion]

But not Junker!. Younkers appears to have many meanings - for example some US employment sites are advertising for younkers which appear to be a form of junior sales person in some states - all red herrings However see post 11

[Liz in Eastbourne]

It's a specific job on a Herring Drifter. see this description from Tom Brown who worked on the boats before WW2

"I remember goin' after my first berth; old skipper, my father was with him. My father was mate, and he said, "Come on, boy," he said, "if you're goin' to sea, you'd better go and see old Cripp." Everybody had nicknames around our way. I had to go and see old Cripp Green, the skipper. And I went to him, "Skipper, I want a berth. Can you give me a berth?" He sort of looked at me, "Ah," he said, "your father bin a good chap with me," he said. "You can come." I was a big boy. I was a big brawny boy, so I went younker. Not as cook… And the younker, he was cast off; he had to take off the fastenings that held the nets to the warp. Well, I took them off. I went [as] that."

Not sure however I'm much wiser

I assume the men you're interested in are

Samuel John Hewett

Jones, Harry Lewis

both Younkers on a Yarmouth boat mined in 1914. Another crewman is listed as Whaleman - what did a whaleman do on a herring drifter?

If you'd given more info in the first post I could have found it a lot faster.

From a website about a Caister singer - http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/t_brown.htm

I could not find anything when I looked originally because I searched on 'Norfolk seamen younkers' and got several sites about sperm donation in Norfolk, but changing 'seamen' to 'fishermen' did the trick!

Liz

[centurion]

Yes the OP did not mention Yarmouth or fishermen and it was only when I got that info that I could find anything useful. My only surprise then was that the OP hadn't already found it - it was a very simple search.

BTW Apart from amongst Yarmouth herring fisher folk (who appear to have a dialect all of their own) Younkers in general has a note of young trainee about it and is used variously for ships apprentices, cadets and trainees in retail management depending on where it is used

[seb phillips]

Hi Liz,

hope that search didn't turn up anything too horrible!

Centurion, many thanks for your assistance on this one.

Regards,

Seb