Death or the Red Baron

[Edward_N_Kelly]

Finally some words from Peter Kilduff......

Following up our recent exchange, I am forwarding for use on the List a newspaper article in today's (Connecticut) Herald-Press, containing points I made re: errors in a scholarly journal article about the death of World War I German fighter ace Manfred Freiherr [baron] von Richthofen on 21 April 1918. Also attached is an e-mail exchange between the article's co-authors and me.

To summarize my view, I wrote to the co-authors: "Quite frankly, yours is the most irresponsible comment I have heard about Manfred von Richthofen since the recent Public TV Nova program "Who Killed the Red Baron?" in which one interviewee opined that Richthofen had "a death wish" during his last aerial combat. In my view, neither is good history nor good science. As you have made reference to my 1993 book "Richthofen - Beyond the Legend of the Red Baron," I invite you to return to Page 200 as evidence of Richthofen's good spirits before his last aerial combat.

"The evidence indicates to me -- although I am not a medical specialist; rather, an observer and recorder of events -- that Manfred von Richthofen was recovering from his wounds. Indeed, he attained some 30% of his aerial victory score following the July 6, 1917 incident. Hardly the performance of a brain-injured person who was merely persevering."

Regards,

Peter

Local Red Baron expert counters cause of death

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From: Kilduff, Peter (UnivRltns)

Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 11:45 AM

To: 'Orme, Daniel'

Thanks for your comments about my extensive research into the life of World War I German fighter pilot Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen, going back to the publication of my first book about him in 1969.

During work on four subsequent books about "the red baron" and gaining access to little-seen research sources in former East Germany, I have been fortunate in gathering a variety of perspectives on Manfred von Richthofen's life and career.

Thus, I have three concerns about your study and its conclusions (as noted in my lengthy commentary to Associated Press reporter Scott Charton):

First, your hypothesis is neither new nor original. A much more comprehensive article was published by Dr. Henning Allmers in 1999 in the prestigious British medical journal "The Lancet" ("Richthofen's Medical Record - was the Red Baron Fit to Fly" Lancet, 1999, 354: 502-4).

Second, as documented in my notes to Mr. Charton, your study contains historical errors that a more careful consideration of the subject could have avoided.

Third, I take great exception to your use of the word "immature" in describing Manfred von Richthofen's behavior after July 6, 1917 and inferring that such unsubstantiated "behavior" related directly to his death on April 21, 1918. Dr. Allmers' article in "The Lancet" was much more medically precise.

Quite frankly, yours is the most irresponsible comment I have heard about Manfred von Richthofen since the recent Public TV Nova program "Who Killed the Red Baron?" in which one interviewee opined that Richthofen had "a death wish" during his last aerial combat. In my view, neither is good history nor good science. As you have made reference to my 1993 book "Richthofen - Beyond the Legend of the Red Baron," I invite you to return to Page 200 as evidence of Richthofen's good spirits before his last aerial combat.

The evidence indicates to me -- although I am not a medical specialist; rather, an observer and recorder of events -- that Manfred von Richthofen was recovering from his wounds. Indeed, he attained some 30% of his aerial victory score following the July 6, 1917 incident. Hardly the performance of a brain-injured person who was merely persevering.

Due to the worldwide circulation of the AP story, I have heard from World War I history colleagues in several countries. Two of them, both medical doctors specializing in neurology, have gone on record as strongly disagreeing with your contentions.

To quote Dr. Andrew Bamji of Great Britain: "On a practical note, it is most unlikely that an injury that did not result in loss of consciousness of any significant duration, especially if there was no pre-traumatic amnesia, would have been sufficient to impair later performance. Subsequent long-term effects correlate well with the duration of amnesia, pre- and post-traumatic. From the description I suffered worse falling off a horse aged 12!"

To quote Dr. Geoffrey Miller of Australia: "There is very little evidence that [Richthofen] had any significant loss of competence: when MvR suffered his head injury he had shot down 57aeroplanes and after he returned to duty he shot down 23 more! This would be most remarkable if he had frontal lobe disease!"

As you note, "there is plenty of room for collegial disagreements on this and other related Red Baron topics" but I think your study is so flawed that it should be withdrawn, totally re-thought and contain more in-put from medically-qualified personnel.

I respect your qualifications as psychologists of long standing with the U.S. Air Force, but I believe that dealing with living contemporaries who are qualified by you to fly is vastly different than attempting to analyze a pilot who last flew 86 years ago and with whom you had no personal -- and only anecdotal -- contact.

Cordially,

Peter Kilduff

President Emeritus

The League of World War I Aviation Historians

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From: Orme, Daniel

Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 10:41 PM

To: Kilduff, Peter (UnivRltns)

Subject: Red Baron

Dear Mr. Kilduff,

We appreciate your interest in our Red Baron paper. We also understand and respect your concerns, particularly since you have written extensively on the subject. Regarding Richthofen's documented head injury of 1917, we believe our conclusions are sound. On the other hand, as you know probably better than anyone else, there is plenty of room for collegial disagreements on this and other related Red Baron topics. It is this disagreement, in fact, that makes the topic so interesting and keeps it alive, don't you think?

Respectfully,

Thomas Hyatt, Psy.D. Daniel Orme, Ph.D., ABPP/Cn

[Guest bonza]

PHEW!

Will never again enjoy listening to Royal Guardsmen ? singing? Snoopy vs.....................

[AndyHollinger]

Geez ... think if this group took on Haig!

[Edward_N_Kelly]

Geez ... think if this group took on Haig!

They would proabbaly have had him declared insane and locked away!

(But then that is the opinion of some in any case......)

Cheers

Edward

[Edward_N_Kelly]

And just to have a final word........

'Red Baron' to fly again

(Who said he was dead - he was just a very naughty boy !)

Cheers

Edward

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

[Arnie]

The Red barons demise by a single .303in bullet is behond doubt and as we have seen the problem is who fired it?

Can I add another aspect and story? A few years ago I read in a copy of the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry's Regimental Magazine the obituary of an ex KOYLI Serjeant Major and although I cannot remember all the details, the obituary stated that the man concerned, then a Serjeant was decorated for the shooting down of the Red Barron with one shot from a sniper rifle.

Make of it what wish but I suppose the claim could be just as valid.

Arnie

[Guest bonza]

Perhaps the Canadians might now relinquish the seat taken from the Red Baron's plane?

[David Filsell]

Peter

Excellent response. But having followed the various arguements in a number of websites, I am now drawn to the view that it would be best to conclude that it was infact Snoopy in his famous Sopwith "The Dog Kennel" what done it. Such a conclusion enables us to avoid international, medical and historical facts (in line with a number many others whose views have been expressed).

Regards

David

[marc leroux]

David, your argument is flawed. While Snoopy (an American??) undoubtedly shot down the Red Baron on 2, possibly 3 occasions, a careful analysis shows that the Red Baron always survived his encounters with Snoopy.

marc

[Guest bonza]

Such a conclusion enables us to avoid international, medical and historical facts (in line with a number many others whose views have been expressed).

Regards

David

David

Might I respectfully allude to the inconsistentsee between the above quotation and your previous message of mutual enlightenmentt for forum members.

Goliath One

David Nil

[David Filsell]

No respect needed. You are quite correct and clearly it was also factually in error only my comments to Peter Kilduff were meant to be taken seriously. I must make a greater effort to ioron out my attempted irony.

regards

David