What Army uniform and cap badge is this?

[researchingreg]

Please have a look at this 1916 photo what uniform and cap badge is this?

I think it is either Pte Percival Frederick King 481018 of the RAMC or Pte Augustus Harold King 202906 of the Army Service Corps.

However the cap badge though not distinct does not seem correct for either of these units.

[Steven Broomfield]

I'd say it wasn't either of them. Off the top of my head, is Essex Yeomanry a possibility (though i can't remember if they had a scroll at the bottom)?

[jay dubaya]

I'd go along with the Essex Yeomanry - no scroll on Great War issue

Jon

[Guest]

I don't think it is Essex Yeomanry. The cap badge had a few different versions, some with a scroll, some without, but all designs were are circlet. The badge in question looks oval to me. ...Unless there is some elongation in the photo. MG

Edit. I would also add that the scroll-less version worn 1909 to 1916 was a small badge, much smaller than the one shown in the picture. In 1916 the scroll (with Decus et tutamen) was added to a larger circlet incribed Essex Yeomanry surmounted by a crown (approved 18th April 1916). The Essex Imperial Yeomanry badges were initially a larger circlet, then with a long scroll, then just the shield of the Arms of Essex (no circlet) and then the small circlet later adopted through transition to the TF but with Audacter et sincere removed from the circlet and substituted with Decus et tutamen. MG

[T8HANTS]

Any closer?

[Guest]

Any closer?

This , technically speaking, is an Essex Imperial Yeomanry badge not worn after 1909. The motto on the scroll is the giveaway. MG

[Staffsyeoman]

It looks to me like the 'On War Service' badge issued to munitions workers - that was more oval= could it be akin to the issue of GS buttons in lieu of cap badges? But it does not look like the Esse Yeomanry. He also seems to be wearing embroidered slip over shoulder titles. But this one is a puzzler.

[johnboy]

The three swords are the emblem of Essex County.

[Guest]

Sea axes (pedantically speaking).

[johnboy]

Silly me. [Plainly speaking]

[researchingreg]

It is interesting that Phil McCarty (Staffsyeoman) thinks that it couid be a War Munitions Workers Badge. As Pte Percival Frederick King 481018, joined the RAMC Territorials on 18 Nov 1913, essentially to work at the 1rst Eastern General Hospital in Cambridge. He worked for the Cambridge Scientific Instruments Company before, during and after WW1 and in his Army record it states that he was released to Civil Employ at the Cambridge Scientific Instrument Company Ltd on 13/9/1915, under conditions of a War Office letter Contracts/1268 (F2) dated 22/5/1915 for essential war work. Subsequently he was discharged from the RAMC on 17/11/1917 (after his 4 years service) under the condition that he carried on working at Cambridge Scientific Instruments for the duration of the war. Therefore could he have possibly worn the munitions workers badge in place of his RAMC badge?

[Guest]

I think Staffs Yeoman has nailed it..https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=on+war+service+badge&client=safari&hl=en-gb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=tJtAUtPgEoSBhAe-mIHwBA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAA&biw=1024&bih=672&dpr=1

[researchingreg]

Martin G. Thanks for the link to the 'On War Service' badges. I think that is what he is wearing on his cap. His profession throughout his life was a scientific instrument maker.

[Guest]

Martin G. Thanks for the link to the 'On War Service' badges. I think that is what he is wearing on his cap. His profession throughout his life was a scientific instrument maker.

You might be interested in the monumental History of the Ministry if Munitions. .. 12 volumes, which has been reprinted recently. MG

[johnboy]

You might be interested in the monumental History of the Ministry if Munitions. .. 12 volumes, which has been reprinted recently. MG

Should that be Ministry OF Munitions?

[Guest]

Yes. Thank you for pointing it out.

[researchingreg]

In case any body is interested:

The Cambridge Scientific Instrument Company (where Pte. Percy King worked) was founded in 1881 by Horace Darwin the youngest son of Charles Darwin to supply the laboratories of Cambridge University with measuring instruments such as galvanometers, oscillographs, potentiometers etc. The firm quickly expanded and became a supplier of stock industrial instruments as well. When WW1 began in 1914 the company initially planned to scale down its activities, but soon began expanding them to supply military instrumentation needs. Darwin during the War, developed the "mirror position finder" with physiologist A.V.Hill which was a device used to track aircraft and anti-aicraft bursts in three dimensions. (This could have been of particular interest to Percy King as one of his brothers was an RFC pilot). The War fueled the company's further growth, but it was not good for Darwin personally - his son Erasmus, to whom Horace Darwin hoped to pass on his business was killed in battle near Ypres.

[dink_and_pip]

First thing I thought was it looked like an On War Service badge. Interesting to note that this chap was recalled from the colours - so does this mean that such men still wore their uniforms but with OWS badge? Is there more of this photo or is it just head and shoulders? Anybody seen any similar photos?

Andy

[researchingreg]

I do have a full length photo of him in uniform but it was too big to load in the original post.

Edited 24 September , 2013 by researchingreg

[researchingreg]

I have uploaded the full length photo of RAMC Pte Percival Fredrick King 481018 wearing his uniform with the cap badge that we think is an 'On War Service' cap badge in the gallery entitled 'Men and women of the Great War' as I can't seem to upload it here. However I don't think it will give you any further information.

[Staffsyeoman]

Gentlemen, thank you for your kind words. I honestly think we have hit on something original here. If only we could see those shoulder titles.

[Tobias]

Hello, at first I believed this to be an Essex Yeomanry Cap Badge as I can think of naught other cap badges that look anything like it, except the 18th Queen Mary’s Own Royal Hussars cap badge, however that has a wreath at the  bottom of it so it cannot be that. Then looking at his tunic I realised it was the standard infantry pattern 1902 Service Dress thus making me believe he is not wearing the pantaloons which were worn for the Essex Yeomanry and multiple other regiments like it. Then I looked to his shoulder and caught sight of him not wearing the Pattern 1903 Leather 90 round Bandolier (issued to all cavalry troops) and it was worn even in the photo shoots of soldiers before they went off to war. It is neither RAMC nor ASC, an interesting and mysterious picture if I do say so.

[researchingreg]

5 hours ago, Tobias said:

Hello, at first I believed this to be an Essex Yeomanry Cap Badge as I can think of naught other cap badges that look anything like it, except the 18th Queen Mary’s Own Royal Hussars cap badge, however that has a wreath at the  bottom of it so it cannot be that. Then looking at his tunic I realised it was the standard infantry pattern 1902 Service Dress thus making me believe he is not wearing the pantaloons which were worn for the Essex Yeomanry and multiple other regiments like it. Then I looked to his shoulder and caught sight of him not wearing the Pattern 1903 Leather 90 round Bandolier (issued to all cavalry troops) and it was worn even in the photo shoots of soldiers before they went off to war. It is neither RAMC nor ASC, an interesting and mysterious picture if I do say so.

The mystery of the badge was solved some years ago. It was an on War service Badge not a military one. He was Percy Frederick King my uncle and he did join the RAMC TA in November 1913 and because he was a scientific instrument maker, in 1915 he was still officially in the RAMC, but was asked to work in a civilian capacity for his previous employer Cambridge Scientific Instrument, however when his RAMC TA 4 years service ended 17 November 1917, he was released from his obligation for civilian essential war work and promptly re-joined the Army and went into the ASC on the same day as he wanted to be a professional soldier. He was soon promoted to 2nd Lt and entered war service in France in 1918. I have his RAMC and his ASC service and medals records. It was an unusual war service.

Edited 15 June , 2020 by researchingreg
Correction of spelling