Welsh formation/unit flash ID please

[Jerry B]

Can anyone id the pale triangular cloth shoulder flash on his arm please.

[mark holden]

Given his OS Service chevrons indicate service until at least 1917 (possibly 1918 if all are blue) it might be worth seeing which battalions of the Welsh Regiment were serving in India/Eygpt in 1918-1920 period that may help identify which Bn the patch represents.

[Scalyback]

I think chaps this is in fact a Pembroke yeomanry cap badge. Note the 2nd scroll. Welch has the 1st scroll, yeomanry then have "Fishguard" underneath as the 2nd scroll.

Edit could be Welch as well! So have a nose at this thread

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=105622

[Jerry B]

Given his OS Service chevrons indicate service until at least 1917 (possibly 1918 if all are blue) it might be worth seeing which battalions of the Welsh Regiment were serving in India/Eygpt in 1918-1920 period that may help identify which Bn the patch represents.

Hi Mark,

it must be post January 1918 as the overseas Service chevrons are not introduced until then (though you probably know that) and he is almost certainly with the 4/5th Bn (the Welsh Regiment) in Egypt. I just wondered if they were Bn flashes or higher formation, such as Division etc. Probably for the Bn as you suggest.

[Jerry B]

I think chaps this is in fact a Pembroke yeomanry cap badge. Note the 2nd scroll. Welch has the 1st scroll, yeomanry then have "Fishguard" underneath as the 2nd scroll.

I thought it was the Ich Dien scroll with the Welsh below, hard to see it clearly enough to tell which it is, Fishguard or the Welsh.

It came from an album with Pembrokeshire related material, but the 4th Bn Welsh also came from that area, so that does not narrow it down and both units were in the middle East towards the end of the war so it could be either.

Thanks for chipping in as I had not considered it might be the Pembs. Yeomanry.

[Scalyback]

Just to confuse you Cheshire yeomanry capbadge can also look similar!

Pembroke yeomanry joined with Glamorgan yeomanry to form 24th Welch Batt. So would any of changed cap badges then. Only a eagle eye RSM would be bothered.

[Jerry B]

Just to confuse you Cheshire yeomanry capbadge can also look similar!

Pembroke yeomanry joined with Glamorgan yeomanry to form 24th Welch Batt. So would any of changed cap badges then. Only a eagle eye RSM would be bothered.

Arrrgh!!!

OK we have narrowed it down to the Welsh, the Glams Yeo, the Pembs Yeo or the Cheshire Yeo.

Mind you, the lower scroll looks to be too thick to be the Glams or the Cheshire Yeo's, so Welsh or Pembs I think

[wainfleet]

I can't comment on what the cap badge might be, but if he is Welsh Regiment then I'd go for the 4th Composite (combined 1/4 and 1/5) Battalion, 53rd Division. The 53rd Div is known to have worn formation signs on khaki drill, which was not widely done, though unfortunately the scheme details are not known. The only other battalion serving in a hot climate, the 8th in Mespot, was a pioneer battalion and should have worn pick and shovel badges on the collar.

[Jerry B]

I can't comment on what the cap badge might be, but if he is Welsh Regiment then I'd go for the 4th Composite (combined 1/4 and 1/5) Battalion, 53rd Division. The 53rd Div is known to have worn formation signs on khaki drill, which was not widely done, though unfortunately the scheme details are not known. The only other battalion serving in a hot climate, the 8th in Mespot, was a pioneer battalion and should have worn pick and shovel badges on the collar.

Thank you for this information and for posting it.

A shame the details of what they wore is not known.

[clive_hughes]

Could be wrong here, but in 53rd Div there was no Divisional patch but the Brigades used them? I have a feeling based on correspondence with a veteran of the 1/6th RWF (? and one of the Osprey volumes) that 158th Bde. had a black-and-white shoulder badge.

Clive

[wainfleet]

Clive et al

I am sure it is correct that the 53rd divisional sign was not worn on uniform. I have the Osprey book on British Battle Insignia but it doesn't add anything to this. Waring's pamphlet gives 1/5th Welsh as wearing a green triangle of 3" base and 2" sides on the back of the tunic.

I have a dim and distant memory of hearing of a collector who owned a 53rd Div Welsh khaki drill tunic, much battered and with either a green triangle on each arm or green stitching where it once was, but that's possibly too subjective to be evidence. Perhaps the combined 4th and 5th battalions wore a green patch moved from the neck to the arms?

The man in this photo is not dressed for mounted duties (no breeches or spurs, puttees wound upwards). He does however have the mounted 03 belt, but by this stage of the war this division was mostly Indian troops who'd have had the 03 equipment, and it could be that the practice was standard for the division. To my mind the evidence favours him being a 4th Welsh man.

Regards,

W.

[clive_hughes]

I've ransacked the attic since my last post and my memory re. Brigade patches was clearly faulty: what I had remembered were notes on 5th & 6th RWF battalion and combined 5/6 battalion patches.

However, I've come up with some other old notes as follows:

1/5th Welsh Regt, large green triangle as mentioned by Wainfleet (I didn't have the dimensions noted). The specimen at the IWM London which was sent them by the OC battn. on 15 September 1917 has the catalogue note "Green cloth triangles worn on left side of sun helmet and on back of jacket in Egypt"

No IWM catalogue notes on 1/4th battn. material.

Clive

[Jerry B]

Many thanks Clive and W for adding more to this and for taking the time to look things up, much appreciated as are all who have contributed, thank you very much.

It arrived today and has the following written in ink on the reverse.

11-11-18

With my best love

To Ruth

Egypt

[wainfleet]

That's very helpful in that we can now rule out the yeomanry regiments that were mentioned, as by this date they had all been sent to the Western Front with the 74th Division. We can also almost certainly rule out 8th Welsh as they were in Mespot, so I think our man is 4th Composite Bn, Welsh Regt. We may never know what colour those triangles are, but I'm betting they're green!

[Jerry B]

Adding the reverse.

Thanks again W for adding your knowledge.

[Cymro]

Clive et al

I am sure it is correct that the 53rd divisional sign was not worn on uniform. I have the Osprey book on British Battle Insignia but it doesn't add anything to this. Waring's pamphlet gives 1/5th Welsh as wearing a green triangle of 3" base and 2" sides on the back of the tunic.

I have a dim and distant memory of hearing of a collector who owned a 53rd Div Welsh khaki drill tunic, much battered and with either a green triangle on each arm or green stitching where it once was, but that's possibly too subjective to be evidence. Perhaps the combined 4th and 5th battalions wore a green patch moved from the neck to the arms?

The man in this photo is not dressed for mounted duties (no breeches or spurs, puttees wound upwards). He does however have the mounted 03 belt, but by this stage of the war this division was mostly Indian troops who'd have had the 03 equipment, and it could be that the practice was standard for the division. To my mind the evidence favours him being a 4th Welsh man.

Regards,

W.

I am the man who owns this tunic - it is a 4th Welsh KD tunic to a named individual - Morgans. It has indeed the thread marks (very clear) for a triangle of exactly the same proportions as that shown in the photograph. I'd say your man is a 4th Welsh man.

Jon

[Jerry B]

I am the man who owns this tunic - it is a 4th Welsh KD tunic to a named individual - Morgans. It has indeed the thread marks (very clear) for a triangle of exactly the same proportions as that shown in the photograph. I'd say your man is a 4th Welsh man.

Jon

Great information Jon, thanks. Any chance of seeing a picture of it, that would be much appreciated if it is possible?

[Grovetown]

I am the man who owns this tunic - it is a 4th Welsh KD tunic to a named individual - Morgans. It has indeed the thread marks (very clear) for a triangle of exactly the same proportions as that shown in the photograph. I'd say your man is a 4th Welsh man.

Jon

Hello mate: we haven't seen you for a while!

Is it my imagination, but is that the tunic of lore that was demonstrably in the Battle for Jerusalem?

Cheers,

GT.

[wainfleet]

I am the man who owns this tunic - it is a 4th Welsh KD tunic to a named individual - Morgans. It has indeed the thread marks (very clear) for a triangle of exactly the same proportions as that shown in the photograph. I'd say your man is a 4th Welsh man.

Jon

What GT said. Glad you are still about, and able to confirm that my memory is (sort of) working properly!

[Cymro]

Hello mate: we haven't seen you for a while!

Is it my imagination, but is that the tunic of lore that was demonstrably in the Battle for Jerusalem?

Cheers,

GT.

Hi buddy - good to be back! Yes, that's the one. It was passed down to his son, a Minister who put it together with his medals and a postcard of the 4th marching out of Fishguard (I think!). Its a belter with the cross-hatched tropical Sergeants stripes on it.

Best.

J

What GT said. Glad you are still about, and able to confirm that my memory is (sort of) working properly!

Nothing wrong with your memory there Wainfleet - hope you're well!

J