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Remembered Today:

Good conduct chevron - less than two years service at death


delta

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Grateful for assistance from "them what knows"

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The picture shows Jack and Joseph Chiazzari - Joe is on the right. He was KIA during the opening attacks of the battle of Cambrai on 20 Nov 1917 whilst serving with E Battalion Tank Corps.

Jack and Joe were both South Africans - Joe arrived in the UK on 15 Sep 1915 and, after first enlisting in the 2nd Co of London Yeo, joined 23 Bn Royal Fusiliers and then the MGC in Jan 1917.

My questions is this: how is Joe wearing what appears to be a Good Conduct Chevron on his left sleeve, when he could not have completed thee years service?

Your thoughts would be most welcome

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If his enlistment date is correct then it's more than likely he was awarded the GC Badge for 'embodied' service having enlisted into County of London Yeomanry in 1915. In 1916 the GC Badge was awarded to members of the T.F. for embodied service and he would have qualified in September 1917.

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Yes, Graham is correct, but, interestingly, deep in the rules for GC badges in the Pay Warrant both the TF and the SR were routinely to be treated in this respect [as indeed pay etc] once mobilised or embodied. I think the AO is politely reminding units of this .......... hardly top of the agenda if you are in a trench, cold, wet, hungry and just a little bit apprehensive.

It was really only in the rank pecking order that it was a bit like the two Ronnies' sketch in that regulars of a given rank were automatically senior to SR regardless of seniority date who were senior to TF. This was later rescinded.

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Gentlemen

Thank you for the explanation.

In that case the photo must have been taken less than two months before his death.

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Hi,

Apologies if this is in the wrong forum, it's my first email.

The attached photo is my grandfather Llewelyn Price (No middle name) born and lived in Wrexham 1892, died 1946, wife Ann Jane Price (Wynne), 1911 census shows him aged 18 steelworker, this is all the info I can find. I have searched other sites looking for him, but found nothing. My remaining family no nothing about him, most have passed away. This is the only photo I have.

Are the chevrons on the right lower sleeve for good conduct ?

I believe the bars on the left sleeve may be wounded markers.

Regards, Mark.

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Hi Bo Bo and welcome to the Forum

Chevrons on the lower right cuff are his 'overseas service chevrons' which were taken into wear in 1918, but each chevron indicated a year of overseas service and looking at your photograph he appears to have three, which would indicate he's been overseas since 1915 and this is confirmed by the medal ribbon which appears to be his "1914/15 Star" ribbon. The two vertical bars on the lower left cuff are his 'wound stripes', indicating being wounded 'twice'. On top of which a look at his shoulder straps tells me that he was member of a Fusilier Regiment

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Chevrons on the lower right cuff are his 'overseas service chevrons' which were taken into wear in 1918

And upside-down to boot (they should be worn point up).

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Looking at medal index cards on Ancestry my money goes on 7677 Pte Llewelyn Price Royal Welsh Fusiliers later renumbered to 20072. Appointed a corporal between being awarded 1914 Star & Victory & BW medals. Date of entry to theatre of war (unspecified0 is 6/11/1914 so medal qaulifies fro 1914 Star.

Peter

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And upside-down to boot (they should be worn point up).

Must be getting old - just didn't twig.

Peter - Well done mate - tried to track him through the MIC's, but used the 'Llewelyn' spelling, which brought up nothing - the additional 'l' as 'Llewellyn' seems to be the clincher.

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Thanks, Graham, Andrew, Punjab612,

I've learnt more since posting late last night than I have in 6 months of browsing the internet.

My Granddads spelling of Llewelyn is most often with 3 L's but occasionally with 4, both are technically correct.

Cheers, Mark.

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There used to be a major steelworks at Brymbo just outside Wrexham - it's now a housing development!

There were others dotted along the North Wales coalfield.

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Looking at medal index cards on Ancestry my money goes on 7677 Pte Llewelyn Price Royal Welsh Fusiliers later renumbered to 20072. Appointed a corporal between being awarded 1914 Star & Victory & BW medals. Date of entry to theatre of war (unspecified0 is 6/11/1914 so medal qaulifies fro 1914 Star.

Peter

Being renumbered suggests he was in one of the Territorial Force battalions. 1st/4th (Denbighshire) Battalion were based in Wrexham and landed in France on 06 Nov 1914. His new number 20072 falls in the block allocated to 1st/4th RWF.

Only catch is that 1st/4th RWF transferred to 47th (2nd London) Division on 01 Sep 1915 as the division's Pioneer Battalion. Your picture is certainly later than 1915 and he is not wearing the crossed pick and rifle collar dog of a pioneer battalion.

Everything else fits though, so my money's on that!

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Thanks Guy's, I've added the info to my records, will use it to dig further.

I was back in Wrexham in April this year, after 28 years of being downunder, my mums 90 next year and very frail, my granddads photo is from her old biscuit tin.

The Royal Welch Fusiliers had been based in Wrexham until recent times. I should have done some research while I was there.

All my ancestors on both sides of the family, back as far as 1840 worked and lived in and around Brymbo, nearly all were coal miners, my Dad worked at the steel mill for a short period after demobbing WW2 from the Navy (Stoker), my mum also worked at the steelworks during WW2 as a gantry crane operator.

I drove round where the steelworks once was, it does have some new housing, but km's of it is an eyesore of abandoned land, all the buildings and railways have gone.

Cheers, Mark.

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I drove round where the steelworks once was, it does have some new housing, but km's of it is an eyesore of abandoned land, all the buildings and railways have gone

Tell me - I'm in mountain rescue and we've had to conduct missing person searches in that waste ground several times!

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I think it's highly likely that the absence of pioneer badges on his collar is due to his being wounded, sent home to recover and reposted to a different battalion, as frequently happened. He's clearly spent quite some time away from the front, having been in-theatre since Nov 1914 but only having three service chevrons.

Incidentally 3 chevrons doesn't mean three full years service - the first chevron was awarded as soon as a soldier set foot in the theatre of war, and each subsequent one followed after a further year's service. So three chevrons can mean anything between 2 years 1 day and 2 years 364 days. The chevrons do however date this photo to not earlier than 1918, and I would guess fairly early on in that year as no NCO appears to have twigged that he's wearing them upside-down!

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The chevrons do however date this photo to not earlier than 1918, and I would guess fairly early on in that year as no NCO appears to have twigged that he's wearing them upside-down!

When did the 1914 Star ribbons start to appear?

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When did the 1914 Star ribbons start to appear?

Authorised very late 1917, but the ribband didn't appear to all practical purposes until early/mid 1918. But post 7 shows Llewelyn Price was entitled to the 1914-15 Star, and that wasn't authorised until very late 1918, with ribband issue from early 1919. So no excuse for having his Overseas Service Chevrons up the wrong way round at that relatively late date...

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Authorised very late 1917, but the ribband didn't appear to all practical purposes until early/mid 1918. But post 7 shows Llewelyn Price was entitled to the 1914-15 Star, and that wasn't authorised until very late 1918, with ribband issue from early 1919. So no excuse for having his Overseas Service Chevrons up the wrong way round at that relatively late date...

MIC shows Embarkation Date of 06 Nov 1914.

Wouldn't that mean he was entitled to the 1914 Star rather than 1914-15 Star despite what is said in Post #7?

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MIC shows Embarkation Date of 06 Nov 1914.

Wouldn't that mean he was entitled to the 1914 Star rather than 1914-15 Star despite what is said in Post #7?

Curious - but if he was entitled to the 1914 Star he should have a red chevron up on his Overseas Service Chevrons. And the picture is clear enough to see it doesn't appear to be there. Does it say which theatre of war he embarked for? Just wondering if he embarked for somewhere which would have taken more than two months to get to...

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Curious - but if he was entitled to the 1914 Star he should have a red chevron up on his Overseas Service Chevrons. And the picture is clear enough to see it doesn't appear to be there. Does it say which theatre of war he embarked for? Just wondering if he embarked for somewhere which would have taken more than two months to get to...

But the scarlet was at the top when worn correctly [in the correct heraldic sense of chevron, a roof rafter] and there is something BELOW the obvious badges, dark? Scarlet shows darker than blue in ortho film

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But the scarlet was at the top when worn correctly [in the correct heraldic sense of chevron, a roof rafter] and there is something BELOW the obvious badges, dark? Scarlet shows darker than blue in ortho film

Indeed, but it doesn't look like a red stripe to me, more the shadow of the edge of the blue stripes.

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Thanks Guys,

The conversation is most interesting, i have learned so much. all I can add is that I cropped the photo to allow it to be <250Mb, the complete photo shows his wife (my grandmother who passed in 1979), and his daughter aprox 3 years old.

It looks like a studio setting, maybe it was taken on his return home at wars end. Talking with my older sister, her belief is that his health was poor from being gassed until he passed aged in 1946 aged aprox 54.

I've used the info from these conversations to search further into the 1/4th RWF and the 47th 2nd London, I have downloaded the 47th London division by Maudrich and looking for a copy of The 4th (Denbighshire) battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers in the great war. January 1, 1926 by Charles Ellis (Author).

Thanks again for the information. My 19yr old son has today received his starting date with the Royal Australian Navy, wifes teary as it's our last child at home.

Cheers, Mark.

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Consulting the medal rolls for the RWF will most likely show which battalions he served in.

It's a shame you tacked this on to the end of an unrelated topic - the Pals who specialise in the RWF (such as GRUMPY) are less likely to spot this. If you'd started a new topic you could have edited the topic title to attract the other RWF Pals who might well have access to both the RWF medal rolls and the war diaries.

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Thanks MBrockway,

I only became aware of the site a few days ago, still taking in it's etiquette.

I obtained the medal rolls yesterday from National Archives. I will start a new topic concerning the Lance Corporal chevron pattern. I have been unable to find any reference to the cross hatching style.

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