Aerial fight on 01/27/1918.

[Revan]

Hello,

I have a question to you about my researches on 507th French Squadron in the Balkans on January, 1918. If you want.

On 27 January, 1918, morning. An enemy aircraft was flying over Salonika and it was taken in chase by several planes of this French Squadron. And an aerial fight was, and the machine guns's shots by the aircrafts were numerous and in short distance on this enemy plane. A British aircraft had joined this chase and this fight. This German aircraft had success for to come back in its lines, diving very strongly.

In a French document about this aerial fight, it is written that the British ask to the Frenchies, if the Frenchies consider this German aircraft as a downed aircraft. In this same document, the Frenchies say : "It seems that this plane was hit (by bullets), but it isn't possible to claim (to say) that this aircraft have been downed. (French words are not "downed" in this text, the same meaning, but not easy to make translation in English).

Does anyone know British pilot's name? Thank you in advance.

All my apologises, of my poor English language. I hope it is clear and understandable.
Best regards.

[Revan]

On 27 January, 1918, morning. An enemy aircraft was flying over Salonika

Hour of this plane flying over Salonika was normally 10 : 30 AM, but caution, it is the time zone of the French army in this front (Greece). I don't know if British army was in the same time zone than the French in this front. (I think it was the same time zone for English-French, but...).

[Revan]

Hello,

A message, here, by Topgun, was notified to me, but no message. I don't know why? Perhaps it was deleted by Topgun.

I know the names of all the French pilots in this chase (Spad or Nieuport aircrafts) against this German aircraft (and by the opinion of the French pilots, this German aircraft was a L.F.W. type), but I don't know the name of this pilot in a British aircraft in fight with the French aircrafts. I am very interested for to replace in my file " a British aircraft joins them in this chase and fight" by the name of this pilot. I know it is not easy to find in the archives, a name and all the names in the aerial fights, but a British aircraft was with them. For the moment his name is unknown.

Thank you.

Regards.

[fetubi]

Hi Revan,

In a number of sources, referring to 28 Jan 1918 there is a claim for a DFW C-Type ftl and destroyed south of Angista to Lt GE Gibbs in 17Sqn SE5a B613 (eg his Aces entry on the Aerodrome, as well as saying the same details on a transcription of 17Sqn Combat Reports that I have), and along side this I also have Lt AG Goulding in "5574" - which number doesn't tie in - although Goulding was also a 17Sqn SE5a pilot. There was an SE5a F5574, but much later and no where near Salonika.

So that's as close as I can take you! Wrong day, a claim which doesn't get mentioned in Sturtivant and Page's SE5a File, and a mystery serial - but someone else might be able to pick these threads up for you.

Hope it helps, and good luck.

Trevor

[topgun1918]

Hi Revan

Sorry for the confusion; I had started typing a response only to discover it was for a thread on another Forum. In trying to delete the message I contrived to press "post" instead of "delete" then had to delete the post.

Graeme

[topgun1918]

Revan

I see Trevor has beaten me to it on this one. The Aerodrome and some other sources give Goulding's aeroplane as a "Nieuport" and while N5574 was the serial allocated to a Nieuport XV, the contract was cancelled. As Trevor says, a bit of a mystery.

Graeme

[fetubi]

Hi Graeme,

I didn't think to look up Goulding on The Aerodrome - good effort. I note from the authors' notes buried deep in his Cross and Cockade Nieuport Monograph that:

"17 Squadron RFC

In Macedonia. A detachment at Florina operated one Nieuport 17 on loan from a French unit during 12.1917." I'd bet that 5574 was the French serial of this machine.

Trevor

[fetubi]

I've just been looking at some aircraft movement transcriptions for 17Sqn (out of AIR1/2348/226/12/3) and that French Nieuport Scout was "Nieuport 5514". Sound almost familiar?!

I'd say we've got Golding's aircraft, as 5514 was flown in from the French to Lahana on 15 Dec 1917, and Golding made a forced landing in it at Suhabanja due to engine trouble on 6 Jan 1918 (it was still with the unit at the end of Feb). The same file confirms the Gibbs' combat as happening on 28 Jan.

Trevor

[topgun1918]

Hi Trevor

I've looked up 5514 in "Nieuports in RNAS, RFC and RAF Service" and this gives the following:

"13 Nieuport Scouts operated by 17 and 47 Squadrons RFC/RAF. These machines were on loan from French units and retained their SFA identities. The earliest reference is to an unidentified 'Baby' Nieuport on 16.8.17. Sub-types are suggested - the identification being deduced by comparing SFA numbers with those of known types."

Under N5514 is states: "Nieuport 27? 17 Sqn Marian dd ex French aerodrome 14.12.17 (via Janes, Amberkoj and Lahana), fitted with single Vickers gun by 28.1.18 (Lt A G Goulding) and wrecked near Suha Vanja in forced landing during patrol 22.2.18 (2nd Lt E L Gresley-Cox)."

What a team!

Graeme

[fetubi]

Agreed!!

[Revan]

Hello to all.
Thank you for your researches at my request.

The informations that I know by the French archives, and for to say more informations :

Date is well, 27 January, 1918.
This German aircraft is normally considered by the French as "probably downed" and not "downed". So, normally 0 victory in the French camp.

German plane's way was normally :
- Coming from North-East of GUVEZNE (I don't know in English) at 10:12 AM.
- Over GUVEZNE at 10:25 AM.
- Over AAA (poste n° 129 AAA) and Salonika harbor at 10:30 AM.
British AAA at LEMBET have fired on it.
AAA at Mont Saint-Paul have fired on it.
AAA (18th ???) have fired on it.

The German plane was after, going to East.

Three French planes of 507th squadron (Sergeant VIENNE, Corporal GIRON and Corporal MARCHAND) were in mission ("hinder mission", I don't know in English if good, in French is "barrage") in the area North SALONIKA. This German plane (D.F.W. for the French pilot) was taken in chase by two of these three French planes in the sky. Corporal GIRON had machine gun faillure, early in the fight, and Sergeant VIENNE had fired 250 cartriges. Five aircrafts of this French squadron (Sub-lieutenant NAST (chief of the Squadron), Sub-lieutenant LEMOINE, M.D.L. HEBERT, Corporal LALLET and an other French Corporal, have take off for to do chase of it. NAST, HEBERT and LALLET join it over BESIK lake (I don't know in English), and helped by a British plane, they have a fight with this German plane. Numerous cartriges were fired in short distance. This chase and fight (by NAST, HEBERT and LALLET) was from BESIK lake to ORFANO gulf. After, the German plane have dived in its lines very strongly.

For the moment, they are all the informations that I know about this German plane and fight.

Best regards.

[Revan]

Hi Revan,

In a number of sources, referring to 28 Jan 1918 there is a claim for a DFW C-Type ftl and destroyed south of Angista to Lt GE Gibbs in 17Sqn SE5a B613 (eg his Aces entry on the Aerodrome, as well as saying the same details on a transcription of 17Sqn Combat Reports that I have), and along side this I also have Lt AG Goulding in "5574" - which number doesn't tie in - although Goulding was also a 17Sqn SE5a pilot. There was an SE5a F5574, but much later and no where near Salonika.

So that's as close as I can take you! Wrong day, a claim which doesn't get mentioned in Sturtivant and Page's SE5a File, and a mystery serial - but someone else might be able to pick these threads up for you.

Hope it helps, and good luck.

Trevor

It is interesting.

Date is not the same.

I know this fight by GIBBS on 28 January, 1918, and it speaks of a Nieuport plane (French or British? I don't know) with him.

It is interesting.

Greetings.

[Revan]

I know this fight by GIBBS on 28 January, 1918, and it speaks of a Nieuport plane (French or British? I don't know) with him.

I make a translation of the brief French text that I know about his victory and fight (and in my poor English):

Normally, he was on SE5a.

"An enemy plane (D.F.W. type, "Aviatik" two-seater), seen flying South-East long of line of the river, the Lieutenant GIBBS flew over it, and dived on it, firing of his two machine gun. In the same time, where British pilot (GIBBS) reloads a band (machine gun), "Aviatik" was under attack of a "Nieuport". GIBBS's plane, coming back in his first position (understand, after to have reload and in the fight again), Lieutenant GIBBS opened fire on this enemy plane a salvo of 150 cartriges. Enemy plane heading to its lines in a "vol plané" (in French, I don't know "vol plané" in English), hunted (pursued) by this British plane (GIBBS) (...)".

After, the French language used in this French text, is strange in French language. Important informations are not added in the sentences for to understand very well. But I do an attempt.

"(...)Lieutenant GIBBS saw (what? I imagine is the German plane) in dive at 914 meters over RAZOLIVOS. The observer (I imagine text speaks of the German observer) stopped his machine gun fire, and the enemy plane dived in spiral ("vrille" in French) and was lost of the eyes".

"It was observed that this plane had landed near POLCHISTA, South of ANGISTA".

(Source : French archives).

My translation is a shame in English language. All my apologises, I do my best, but not easy.

Theaerodrome says 11:30 AM.

Greetings.

[topgun1918]

Revan

As Trevor and I have posted, No 17 Squadron was using a number of Nieuports on loan from the French and Gibbs was accompanied by Lt A G Goulding in one of these Nieuports. The book "Nieuports in RNAS, RFC and RAF Service" by Mike O'Connor, Mick Davis and Ray Sanger says that the Nieuports retained their SFA numbers and Goulding was in N5514 (SFA number).

Regards

Graeme

[mickdavis]

Having compiled the CCI Nieuport monograph serial listing, I'd hasten to add that N5574 was also probably a Type 27 - N5572 became RFC B6797, N5575 B6826, N5576 B6798 and N5579 B6813; all Type 27s.. I don't know enough about French unit allocations to say where N5574 was or which units it served with.

[Revan]

Hello,

About French pilot HEBERT, there is a thread here: http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/people/55897-new-french-ace.html

He was really a good pilot (and born near my home).

Sub-lieutenant NAST, was also a good pilot. NAST was same in the N. 390th French Squadron in this area (or #506 since 31 May, 1917), before 507th French Squadron.

Very good pilots.

All these pilots in this world area, were flying over the mountains and a big mountains area. I have respect to them and their history.

Best regards.