Allocation of Regimental Service Numbers

[JMB1943]

From scanning attestation forms, I had always assumed that the regimental number was assigned by the recruiting sergeant at the time of attestation. However, I have come across two men with adjacent regimental numbers, who enlisted in different towns. The numbers do not fall on an expected "batch" sequence cut-off, such as 949-950 or 9999-10000 etc.

Interestingly, they shared the same surname. Both were KiA with different battalions of the same regiment.

Does this imply that their numbers were issued when they stood in line together at the regimental depot, rather than separately at the recruiting stations ?

Regards,

JMB

[kenf48]

Does this imply that their numbers were issued when they stood in line together at the regimental depot, rather than separately at the recruiting stations ?

Previously discussed on a number of threads, here's one. The consensus is at the Depot.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=160347&hl=%2Bwhen+%2Bwere+%2Bregimental+%2Bnumbers+%2Bissued#entry1554053

I think to a certain extent as well it depends on the date, in 1914 for example men often went from the recruiting office to the Depot often on the same day but by 1915/6 there could be months between attestation and mobilisation. It also depends on regimental practice as some did use the batch system.

Ken

[butler]

Posted 20 August 2014 - 03:11 PM

One of the soldiers I am researching had the number "02".

The information that I have is that he was in the Somerset Light Infantry attached to the 2nd Hampshire Regt and drowned in the River Dvina in June 1919.

Would that have been a new number for that attachment ?

Really interested.

Caroline S

The Hampshire Regt and some other southern county regiments renumbered their regular soldiers shortly after the war from 01. In the Hampshire Regt 01-0400 mainly appear to be ex Dorset Regiment. The 01 onwards series for the Hampshire Regt extends to about 012500 until the introduction of the seven digit service number.

[Acknown]

I'm jumping aboard an old thread here, but having read the above I still can't decipher this one:

 

8/13881 Acting LCpl George Ambrose - 52nd (Graduated) Battalion The Devonshire Regiment - died in UK 15 June 1918 without, it seems, having served abroad.

 

If anyone has the patience to calculate his rough enlistment date (what does the 8/ mean?) and any other details (where enlisted?), I would be hugely grateful.

 

Acknown

[ss002d6252]

4 minutes ago, Acknown said:

I'm jumping aboard an old thread here, but having read the above I still can't decipher this one:

 

8/13881 Acting LCpl George Ambrose - 52nd (Graduated) Battalion The Devonshire Regiment - died in UK 15 June 1918 without, it seems, having served abroad.

 

If anyone has the patience to calculate his rough enlistment date (what does the 8/ mean?) and any other details (where enlisted?), I would be hugely grateful.

 

Acknown

His full number, as per the effects records was TR8/13881 .

 

His war gratuity tells us only that he had less than 12 months service at the time of his death. It notes his death was 'presumed'.

Craig

[RaySearching]

2 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

It notes his death was 'presumed'.

 

This had me intrigued  "Death Presumed" but interred in Taverham (St Edmund) Churchyard ?

 

The following cutting may explain it

 

 

Regards Ray

 

Edit cutting from Gloucestershire Chronicle 10th Aug 1918

Edited 1 December , 2016 by RaySearching
To included date of newspaper cutting

[ss002d6252]

6 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

 

This had me intrigued  "Death Presumed" but interred in Taverham (St Edmund) Churchyard ?

 

The following cutting may explain it

 

 

Regards Ray

 

Edit cutting from Gloucestershire Chronicle 10th Aug 1918

Thanks Ray - I wondered if it has been something like suicide or accident but I got distracted working on the gratuity so never checked.

The effects record entry was created in Sep 1919 so I'm surprised they used 'death presumed' as the reason. I wonder why the CWGC states June as the death if he was last seen in March 1918. The army used the date the body was found so I'm also surprised this varies from the CWGC date - I know they had to effectively just pick a date to run with but they're usually the same when they do.

Craig

[Acknown]

Thank you very much gentlemen. I had the sad newspaper cutting, but didn't know how long he had served. I presume that TR (missed that) means Training Reserve and that he had arrived at the 52nd not long before he disappeared. That doesn't quite explain the Acting LCpl rank, unless he had completed training and was kept on in some administrative role. He was aged 41 when he died. I don't understand why he was not conscripted earlier as his occupation was 'gamekeeper' in 1911. Before that he was a postman, so perhaps he had reverted to this during the war and this was considered valuable locally. I beginning to make up a tale, but any additional thoughts would be most welcome.

 

Acknown

[ss002d6252]

16 minutes ago, Acknown said:

Thank you very much gentlemen. I had the sad newspaper cutting, but didn't know how long he had served. I presume that TR (missed that) means Training Reserve and that he had arrived at the 52nd not long before he disappeared. That doesn't quite explain the Acting LCpl rank, unless he had completed training and was kept on in some administrative role. He was aged 41 when he died. I don't understand why he was not conscripted earlier as his occupation was 'gamekeeper' in 1911. Before that he was a postman, so perhaps he had reverted to this during the war and this was considered valuable locally. I beginning to make up a tale, but any additional thoughts would be most welcome.

 

Acknown

Yes TR is 'training reserve'.

The acting lance corporal is probably explained by a man of 'older' years who was considered to be responsible and have some presence of authority.

Craig

[Acknown]

Thank you, Craig. Most informative.

 

Acknown

[RaySearching]

The death date 15th June 1918

is the date given on the following cutting 

(Missing since June 15th)

 

 

regards Ray

[ss002d6252]

22 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

The death date 15th June 1918

is the date given on the following cutting 

(Missing since June 15th)

 

 

regards Ray

Thanks Ray.

In some ways it's a pity his service wasn't over 12 months - In that situation it would be interesting to have seen what the army did over the gratuity (for various reasons).

Craig

[Acknown]

Craig,

 

This is my trade test, using your excellent enlistment date indicator! 16078 Pte Henry NICKLEN 2nd Dorsets died in Mesopotamia 18 Dec 16 (gratuity book states 'River Tigris') aged 40. Two gratuity book entries (separate entries):

• 28 Jun 17 - £2. No red ink.
• 09 Sep 19 - additional £17 6s, plus War Gratuity of £3 10s, red box stamp type - 1).

I presume that last entry is the important one, so he served less than a year, which means that he joined at the earliest on 18 Dec 15 and assuming training of at least three months and passage etc. would not have entered the Mesopotamia theatre until at the earliest Apr 16; too late to be in the Kut siege (Dec 15 - Apr 16) which means he did not die in post-Kut captivity but was a 'Norset' and part of the relief attempt.

 

How am I doing?

 

Acknown

 

[ss002d6252]

47 minutes ago, Acknown said:

Craig,

 

This is my trade test, using your excellent enlistment date indicator! 16078 Pte Henry NICKLEN 2nd Dorsets died in Mesopotamia 18 Dec 16 (gratuity book states 'River Tigris') aged 40. Two gratuity book entries (separate entries):

• 28 Jun 17 - £2. No red ink.
• 09 Sep 19 - additional £17 6s, plus War Gratuity of £3 10s, red box stamp type - 1).

I presume that last entry is the important one, so he served less than a year, which means that he joined at the earliest on 18 Dec 15 and assuming training of at least three months and passage etc. would not have entered the Mesopotamia theatre until at the earliest Apr 16; too late to be in the Kut siege (Dec 15 - Apr 16) which means he did not die in post-Kut captivity but was a 'Norset' and part of the relief attempt.

 

How am I doing?

 

Acknown

 

Now class, can anyone tell me why Acknown won't be getting his trade badge or proficiency pay today ?



You were close - the £3 10s is a net payment (being a 'type 1' gratuity) so needs corrected for the £2 minimum service gratuity - this give £5 10s gross. £5 10s gross would be 13 months qualifying service.

Not that it matters here but the £2 payment is the Service Gratuity - for some reason the clerks who dealt with Mesopotamia/India often made a separate note of the Service Gratuity (a little quirk which is pretty much limited only to that section of the effects branch). It does however lead me to another entry on the same page of the register for which I want to look a little bit deeper.

Craig

Edited 2 December , 2016 by ss002d6252

[Acknown]

Oh dear, I thought I was doing so well ... Many thanks for the information. I've put £5 10s into the calculator and it gives me Aug 15. So he could have been in theatre by Nov/Dec 15.

 

I still think he wasn't a POW as I find 'River Tigris' (presumably drowned) as too specific. But no body recovered. Bit of a mystery.

 

Acknown

[ss002d6252]

It was a good try - doing them manually can be difficult. I very rarely use own my calculator and I tend to do them in my head but even after doing hundreds of them I still stutter over some of them.
 

Quote

I still think he wasn't a POW as I find 'River Tigris' (presumably drowned) as too specific. But no body recovered. Bit of a mystery.

Sounds to me like he was last seen going to the river and never seen again or he was otherwise seen to fall in and no body was found - thus he was presumed dead.

The records usually indicate if a man died as a POW.
 

Craig

[kenf48]

4 hours ago, Acknown said:

 

I still think he wasn't a POW as I find 'River Tigris' (presumably drowned) as too specific. But no body recovered. Bit of a mystery.

 

Acknown

 

Using the old fashioned method he enlisted under the Derby Scheme on or around 5/6 December 1915.  Reinforcements arrived in theatre July 1916, which enabled the re-formation of the 2nd Battalion.

 

He may have drowned, but more likely he died of disease.  

SDGW has 'died'.

 

Up until November 1916 the 2nd Dorsets were officially designated as Section 3 Tigris Defences, HQ at Shaikh Saad, which is also where Maude prepared for his offensive to recapture Kut that opened on 13/14 December 1916.  The 2nd Dorsets did not enter the fray until the 10th January 1917 when they were redeployed from the Tigris Defences as replacements for battle losses.

 

Ken

 

Edited 2 December , 2016 by kenf48

[RaySearching]

The CWGC  Grave Register Documents ,Give the cause of death as drowned

Register of soldiers effects give place of death River Tigris

 

It is more than  likely that Pte Nicklen entered the river to bathe  which was not uncommon

Got out of his depth and was swept away 

Regards Ray

 

 

[Acknown]

Many thanks all of you. I'm learning ...

 

Acknown

[Guest]

1537 Lcpl Parkin was my grandfather I am trying to put his military career together. I want to find out were he served and what medals he reieved. Anyone put me on the right path to research.

[Acknown]

Robert,

Welcome to the Forum. I assume that you read this post earlier: ' ... 1537 LCpl George Parkin was given a 5-digit number in 1917 that was out of sequence with the others. Parkin was an original and appears on the 1915 Star Medal Roll with a disembarkation date for Egypt in September 1915 (first reinforcements), meaning he was in the 1/1st Derbyshire Yeomanry in 1915'.

I'll have a look for you, but please tell me more about him if you can: date of birth, where born, where lived and names of wife and children.

Acknown

Mods - Should this be a separate stream to attract more attention?