How important was the Arab Revolt?

[bushfighter]

http://roadstothegreatwar-ww1.blogspot.com/2013/09/how-important-was-arab-revolt.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+RoadsToTheGreatWar+%28Roads+to+the+Great+War%29

[centurion]

To most of the Arabs I discussed it with in Saudi, Yemen, Qatar etc very - but of TEL's part in it they were downright dismissive.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

My view is a little different, while the Arab revolt had started before the war it was never seriuos untill the British started to help.

But even the Turks found this revolt to be in low level of interest and would have continued without sucses unless the British forces in Palestine drove the Turks out of Sinai and Palestine and captured Jerusalm.

While this side show did draw Turkish and even some German forces down there this was on a limited bases it never was serious to the Turks, with most Turkish forces there remained fixed for the war.

While TEL is remembered fondly by most, many of the aussie desert veterns found the Arab forces to be a joke and dismised out of hand.

While fighting the Turks around Amman in Sept 1918 most aussie losses were to arab forces then to Turkish action.

And we all remember an aussie LH Bde helping to protect a Turkish colum that had surrenendered from arab attack.

This maybe a limited view of this part of the war, but the so called Arab revolt did not lead to allied victory in Egypt and Palestine or the final defeat of the Turks in that part of the war.

it was the allied victories in Egypt and Palestine that allowed the Arabs to regain there so called freedom from Turkish rule and allowed them to form there own Govts in the alloted areas granted to them by the Peace conference.

Most Turkish people place the misrule of these areas for the last 100 years down the loss of Turkish control over this area.

Sorry if this offens our pro arab members,

S.B

[James A Pratt III]

Not much. It was Allenby's army that defeated the Turks not TEL. To put it bluntly the Arab tribesmen were not the greatest soldiers in the world. As for TEL lets just say he was rather good at PR. I know this my be somewhat controversial.

[David Filsell]

There have been two recent posts about Lawrence of Famerabia. I would advise any one tempted to offer any shadow of doubt, suspicion or express a negative view about the great man get jumped on very hard. Doubts aren't allowed. I shall therefore remain silent ( and bored) by the subject). How long did he claim it took to totally rewrite the manuscript of his book lost at a railway station!

[hazelclark]

Not much. It was Allenby's army that defeated the Turks not TEL. To put it bluntly the Arab tribesmen were not the greatest soldiers in the world. As for TEL lets just say he was rather good at PR. I know this my be somewhat controversial.

I would agree with that even with my limited knowledge. For some reason the idea has always stuck in my mind that he was somewhat egotistical and later on coloured his exploits to some extent. As a matter of interest, just how famous was he prior to the film with Peter O'Toole?

Hazel

[centurion]

I would agree with that even with my limited knowledge. For some reason the idea has always stuck in my mind that he was somewhat egotistical and later on coloured his exploits to some extent. As a matter of interest, just how famous was he prior to the film with Peter O'Toole?

Hazel

Pretty famous once his book was published but this diminished over time until the film rekindled it.

I was based for a time at Rabigh which is where TEL had his HQ and took the opportunity to visit some of the places he mentioned that I could reach reasonably easily. It's only one person's impression but I would say that he tended to over embroider his descriptions. Some of the exploits (such as his incredible camel journeys) that he mentions also appear to have been 'lifted' from those of Col Leachman when the latter was working under cover laying the foundations for the Arab rising 1912 -1913.

Re egotistical - my grandmother met him during his post war RAF days and that was how she described him although in somewhat blunter terms.

[Stoppage Drill]

just how famous was he prior to the film with Peter O'Toole?

Hazel

The film was made because he was famous ! Much of the blame for the creation of the myths and legends lie with Lowell Thomas.

[hazelclark]

Pretty famous once his book was published but this diminished over time until the film rekindled it.

I was based for a time at Rabigh which is where TEL had his HQ and took the opportunity to visit some of the places he mentioned that I could reach reasonably easily. It's only one person's impression but I would say that he tended to over embroider his descriptions. Some of the exploits (such as his incredible camel journeys) that he mentions also appear to have been 'lifted' from those of Col Leachman when the latter was working under cover laying the foundations for the Arab rising 1912 -1913.

Re egotistical - my grandmother met him during his post war RAF days and that was how she described him although in somewhat blunter

Although I read his book years ago and have read odd bits about him since, I would be hard put to come up with specific references for my opinion. I think, however, that one can garner a lot about an individual in his own rendition of his experiences.

Hazel

[JSAfrika]

Lawrence is only one aspect of the revolt and whatever the merits of his book / story he commented up front that he was only one of many British soldiers involved.

That said, the revolt may not have had much of an impact on WWI as a whole, but like the campaigns in Africa, they were very important to later history and the peoples of those regions.

JS

[michaeldr]

'How important was the Arab Revolt?'

Wavell gave the following [see his The Palestine Campaigns]

“Its value to the British commander was great, since it diverted considerable Turkish reinforcements and supplies to the Hejaz, and protected the right flank of the British armies in their advance through Palestine. Further, it put an end to German propaganda in south-western Arabia and removed any danger of the establishment of a German submarine base on the Red Sea. These were important services and worth the subsidies in gold and munitions expended the Arab forces.”

[JSAfrika]

Wavell makes the point.

Although many British (and French) officers and men made important contributions to the revolt, Lawrence was instrumental in forcing the British change in strategy from the investment (siege) of Medina to moving north towards Syria by encouraging the Arabs' ultimately successful attack on Akaba.

The Arab Revolt would not have gotten very far without the assistance of Britain, however, and serves as a good example of why insurgencies succeed with external support. It also serves as a warning of what comes after a revolt - instability and continued internecine warfare, not dissimilar to what we see today in the region.

[David Filsell]

Let's get TEL - and the other officers involved -in perspective.

Perhaps the real question (once the Suez Canal had been secured) should be haw important was the campaign in relation to victory in 1918?

[Steven Broomfield]

Maybe the answer is that the Arab Revolt was important, but only in terms of its importance to a side-show.

However, the consequences we live with to this day, so in modern geo-political terms it was extremely important.

[michaeldr]

Perhaps the real question (once the Suez Canal had been secured) should be haw important was the campaign in relation to victory in 1918?

I think that Harry already put that question with his title to this thread - welcome back to the topic in hand David

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Regarding the canal and whether or not this theatre was important to the war effort, let me pose the following:

If the British had lost the Suez Canal...

How difficult would it have been to maintain contact with India, Australia & New Zealand?

As India already had an independence movement (Congress was founded in 1885), would that country have been lost to the British altogether?

How difficult would it have been for the forces of those three countries to continue to reinforce the Western Front?

How difficult would it have been for those three countries to continue to supply much needed food stuffs to Britain and her forces in western Europe?

[e.g.; India supplied: Flour, tea, sugar, rice, coffee, hay, grain & bran

Australia supplied: Tinned & frozen meats, bacon, jam, cheese, rabbits, milk & butter

New Zealand supplied: condensed milk & cheese]

How difficult would it have been for Britain to replace the supplies of oil from Borneo & Sumatra?

If, as an alternative, men materiel and supplies were sent round the Cape, then how much damage would the German submarine fleet have done to the British supply lines?

Without easy access to the Indian ocean via the canal, how effective would the Royal Navy have been in combating the German naval threat to her supply lines?

Without the canal and command of the seas, what would have happened to the men engaged in Mespot on behalf of the British?

The Ottoman Turks made ventures against the canal and it was a clear objective of theirs. If the battle had not been taken to them, then eventually, they might well have succeeded and with dire consequences for the British

[bushfighter]

Thanks Michael, JS & Steven for thinking into the title, and not into the Arab Army & TEL.

I posted this as it is the kind of provocative article that I like - it raises questions well away from the battlefield and Michael and Steven get right into that whilst JS rightly hits a nerve.

I have still much to learn about this front before I can comment meaningfully.

However I have been researching small actions around the Red Sea and without doubt there were good reasons for Wingate, in the Sudan, to motivate and support the Arab Army. The principle reason being the security of the Red Sea for naval convoys.

Survivors from the Emden who were not captured by the Australian Navy sailed back to Yemen where they were succoured by the Turks and helped back to the Baghdad-Berlin railroad.

During the Great War we never did control all the shores of the Red sea but having the Arab Army certainly helped on the eastern flank.

Harry

[JSAfrika]

Bushfighter

Well stated and posted. The same question can be asked of the other "sideshows" like Africa, which may or may not have been important to the overall victory. It is difficult to establish the value of the victory in GSWA for example other than perhaps a propaganda statement. And how many Allied troops did Lettow keep from the battlefields of Europe?

For me the question goes beyond that; the war did not end in 1918.

It is wise to remember the words of Machiavelli: Wars begin when you will, but they do not end when you please.

James

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

There are many misconcemptions mention here.

I like the Wavell quote, while the man is a great thinker I feel his concerns were beyound the Turkish sphere during the war.

Lets deal with some of these points.

"Divert Turkish forces"

While a large Turkish garrison was maintained in Arabia, this force had been there before the war and would continue to remain till shortly after, while this force was added to during the war with Turkish and German troops this was on a temp bases and never in large numbers, but uses for an operation then returned to the main fighting front ie Palestine.

But he's right in that over two Turkish Divisons were used in that area and remained fixed for the war. but could they have been be sent some were else?

For political reasons a large Turkish force was forced to remain there, so was there a real chance this force could be moved if not for the Arab revolt?

"Protect the Right Flank"

This I agree with Wavell, this minor operation did fix Turkish attention away from the Sinai and Palestine, but lets no get funny here, the main Turkish concern was not the Arabs revolt but British movement across Sinai and into Palestine. Any protection was limited as much as the large desert and no Train line between these areas, which limited Turkish movement from these two fronts.

"propergander and German U Boat bases on the Red Sea"

While I don't see what German properagander would influence in this area, other then local native peoples around that area, I don't see his point, but the U boat bases in the Red Sea was a concern but not a practicable one, while the Turks maintain naval bases along the Yeman, there was never the naval force to pose any major concern to the British, now could the Germans trans ship a U boat over land to the Yeman,

While it did in WWII, when a number of coastal U boats were trans ship by rail to Romania and served in the Black Sea, there impact was limited.

Could they do it in WWI, there an interesting what if? But did the Arab revolt stop the Germans from doing this any way if they wanted to?

I don;t think so.

Sorry all this conment is not the dismis the Arab revolt or other minor operations against our enermies during the war, But like the Von Lettlow campaign in East Africa, this was a local thing that had wider influence.

If not for a newsreporter and his book after the war how many would have been concern with TEL and his operations in that thearte of war.

Allanby knew he couldn't control the arab revolt so he suported it, for the reasons given by Wavell, but even he knew the main thearte of the war was in Palestine and victory there would decide the war, while victory or defeat in the Arab revolt would have limited effects.

But we should also state that the Turks were force to leave large garrions in the Yeman and Arabia not because of the Arab revolt but because of British landings along this very long coast,

S.B

[David Filsell]

Michaell

I did say - after the canal had been secured. The importance of that was undeniable. Once that had been done it is not difficult/impossible to judge if the Turks, relatively isolated as they were, could have influenced to overall outcome of the war - whatever situation had continued to obtain in the middle east.

[Ghazala]

Not much. It was Allenby's army that defeated the Turks not TEL. To put it bluntly the Arab tribesmen were not the greatest soldiers in the world. As for TEL lets just say he was rather good at PR. I know this my be somewhat controversial.

This is an extract from Evolution of a Revolt by TEL from the Army Quarterly, 1st October 1920

General Allenby by his immense stroke in Palestine threw the enemies main forces into hopeless confusion and put an immediate end to the Turkish war. We were very happy to have done this with all our pains, but sometimes since I have felt a private regret that his too-greatness deprived me of the opportunity of following to the end the dictum of Saxe that a war might be won without fighting battles. It was an irony of fate to this side show of a side show, with its opportunity of proving or disproving the theory, to an outsider like myself, not qualified technically to make the best of it. I would have given so much to show that Saxe was the greatest master of his kind of war, but now all I can say is that we worked by his light for two years, and the work stood.

..........

"There is no other man I know who could have achieved what Lawrence did. As for taking undue credit for himself, my own personal experience with Lawrence is that he was utterly unconcerned whether any kudos was awarded him or not."

Edmund Allenby, commander of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force to Lowell Thomas.

[domsim]

"There is no other man I know who could have achieved what Lawrence did. As for taking undue credit for himself, my own personal experience with Lawrence is that he was utterly unconcerned whether any kudos was awarded him or not."

Edmund Allenby, commander of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force to Lowell Thomas.

"I had a dozen chaps who could have done a better job"

Edmund Allenby quoted in Lawrence James 'The Golden Warrior: The Life and legend of Lawrence of Arabia' p224 from C.E. Edmonds "Larwence of Arabia" 1935.

You pays your money and chooses your quotes!

Dom.

[Ghazala]

Lawrence James... Bah Humbug.

“He will always have his detractors, those who sneer at the ‘Lawrence legend’; who ascribe his success with the Arabs to gold; who view the man as a charlatan in search of notoriety by seeming to seek obscurity; who describe his descent from colonel to private as evidence of some morbid nostalgia de la boue. They knew not the man. Those who did, even casually and sporadically, like myself, can answer for his greatness”.

Major General A P Wavell – Author of ‘The Palestine Campaigns’

[David Filsell]

Did Wavell actually know the man?

There were many other officers and men assisting the so called Arab Revolt. Has anyone written a worthwhile overview of the entire range of activities, actions and responsibilities of these men. I suspect that it would put TEL in sharper and ore realistic perspective.

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I think you miss the point of the TEL and his actions with our Arab allies during the war.

This threatre of the war was no more important then others against the Turks.

All these help tie down Turks troops and fix attention to allow the major threatre to push ahead.

Was the Arab revolt more important then Iraq?

No

was the Arab revolt more important then Palestine?

No

TEL helped these threatres by his actions, but he was the (British) face of the revolt, there were more important (and higher ranking) British officers operating in Aribia, but TEL commanded major arab forces and was given his head to do what he wanted there.

TEL actions along with those of our arab allies should never be disallowed because of who they were, but they should also not be over estermated because he blow a few trains.

TEL and the arabs only did so well because Allenby did better else where, the Arab advance to Damascus in point.

But the legand is hard to overcome and after one hundred years we are still discussing his part in that Great war.

S.B

[Ghazala]

I am sure that TEL would be the first to agree with you Steve. He himself described his efforts in Arabia as a side show of a side show. His legend though endures year after year. Particularly down here in Dorset.