Bayonets used by AEF in 1918

[jscott]

Hi all

I was hoping that someone might be able to provide a description of the "typical" bayonet that would have been used by the AEF in mid to late 1918 in France. I find all the discussion in relation to P1913, P1917 and M1905 bayonets, and the various US markings - "eagles heads", "flaming bombs" etc very confusing.

I appreciate that the AEF may have used a combination of these bayonets but what would have been the typical bayonet used by front line AEF troops, and how would have these bayonets been marked?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Thanks, J

[shippingsteel]

On the face of it, the most common usage would have to be the M1905 bayonet attached to the M1903 Springfield on the one hand.

And on the other, either the late production (US overstamped) P1913, or the standard M1917 bayonet for the American M1917 rifle.

Of course there were a lot of other weapons used on the odd occasion ... including quite often the SMLE rifle. See HERE for details.

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

J,

Good to see that your interest in the AEF now includes their bayonets.

Here is a good link :-

http://worldbayonets.com/Bayonet_Identification_Guide/United_States__WW_I_/us_wwi_2.html

As you will see from this link, the ' Eagle's Head ' and ' Flaming Bomb ' were Ordnance and Inspection marks.

Regards,

LF

[jscott]

Thanks both, very helpful.

Much appreciated, J

[Lancashire Fusilier]

J,

Here are some photos of American WW1 bayonets, in which you will see examples of the ' Eagle's Head ' and ' Flaming Bombs ' Ordnance and Inspections marks you referred to.

The Patt 1905 Long Bayonet ( 16 inch blade ) from the Springfield Armory with a Patt 1910 Scabbard with a webbing cover, belt bar and leather chape.

A Remington M1917 Bayonet.

2 American soldiers with their M1917 Rifles fitted with M1917 Bayonets.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

J,

As you know, American made bayonets were also used by the British during WW1, and here is a selection of 3 American made P1913 Remington bayonets from my Collection, issued to the British.

Regards,

LF

[shippingsteel]

Here is a LINK to another thread which focusses on the US overstamped variety of P1913 bayonet - in my mind the 'quintessential' American bayonet of the war.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

You both have some very good examples of these bayonets, and I really like the period photographs too - thanks for posting.

LF - re the M1917 bayonet you posted - is there any significance to the number under the eagles head?

Thanks, Jonathan

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Jonathan,

I agree, an excellent selection of different bayonets.

The Eagle's Head mark is the Inspection Mark, and the number below that mark is the Inspector's identification number.

Regards,

LF

[shippingsteel]

There are also a couple more pictures of the various types of M1905 bayonets on the first page of this thread HERE - if you are interested.

I have only ever seen the one example of an American bayonet with markings along the line of unit markings, which I was very lucky to buy.

Cheers, S>S

[Torrey McLean]

Hello - Since the most common rifle used by the AEF was the M-1917 rifle, the most "typical" bayonet would be the M-1917 bayonet. Regards, Torrey

[trenchtrotter]

What's the difference between a P13 & a P17?

I think I have a P17 in a 1918 dated Jewel scabbard in green leather. Bayonet by Remington.

Thanks

TT

[Lancashire Fusilier]

What's the difference between a P13 & a P17?

I think I have a P17 in a 1918 dated Jewel scabbard in green leather. Bayonet by Remington.

Thanks

TT

TT,

The only real difference between the P1913 and the Model 1917 bayonets, apart from the date markings on the ricasso ' 1913 ' for the P1913 and ' 1917 ' for the Model 1917, is that the Model 1917 bayonets were manufactured with a pommel clearance hole, whereas the P1913 bayonets were not.

Subsequent to manufacture, some P1913 bayonets were modified, and a clearance hole was added.

P1913 bayonets will have British inspection and proof marks, and Model 1917 bayonets will have U.S. inspection and proof marks. A quantity of left over British P1913 bayonets were handed back to the Americans, and the British inspection and proof marks were overstamped with U.S. markings.

The leather scabbards on the Model 1917 bayonets have a swivel wire loop fitted to the Locket to suit the U.S. pattern webbing.

There is a scarcer variation of the Model 1917 bayonet, whereby instead of the intended Pattern Date of 1917 being stamped on the ricasso, the manufacture date of ' 1918 ' was stamped by mistake, and as soon as the mistake was realized the correct 1917 date stamp was applied, so not too many of the ' 1918 ' dated Model 1917 bayonets exist.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

TT,

Here is one of the scarcer Model 1917 bayonets with the error ' 1918 ' date stamp from my Collection.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I think I have a P17 in a 1918 dated Jewel scabbard in green leather. Bayonet by Remington.

Thanks

TT

TT,

Is this your type of Model 1917 bayonet scabbard ? This is the Type 2 scabbard made by Jewell ( The Jewell Belting Co. Hartford, Connecticut, U.S.A. )

Regards,

LF

[shippingsteel]

LF, the incorrectly dated 1918 bayonets are actually American Model 1917 versions, not British P1913s. (Wrongly stamped in the year changeover to 1918)

If you turn them over you will see the American inspection markings. Also TT the British use the Pattern number while the Americans used the Model number.

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

LF, the incorrectly dated 1918 bayonets are actually American Model 1917 versions, not British P1913s. (Wrongly stamped in the year changeover to 1918)

If you turn them over you will see the American inspection markings. Also TT the British use the Pattern number while the Americans used the Model number.

Cheers, S>S

S>S,

Well spotted, I deliberately inserted the typo to see if anyone spotted the error

You are absolutely correct, the error is on the Model 1917 and not the P1913, and to prove it, here is the reverse ricasso on my ' 1918 ' dated Model 1917, which as you said clearly shows the American markings.

Many thanks for the correction, which has now been edited.

Regards,

LF

[trenchtrotter]

Thanks all, I do then have a P17. LF, snap exactly like my scabbard and bayonet. I now know who Jewell were.

Thanks

TT

[shippingsteel]

Thanks all, I do then have a P17. LF, snap exactly like my scabbard and bayonet. I now know who Jewell were.

NOooo ... that would be a Model 1917 bayonet with its correct Type 2 scabbard made by Jewell.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

That has actually cleared up a lot of the confusion I had in relation to the P13 and P17 bayonets, so thank you all! A very nice P"18" as well.

I'm sorely tempted to venture into this area of collecting as I do have a burgeoning interest in the AEF, but I fear that once the floodgates are opened...

[Lancashire Fusilier]

That has actually cleared up a lot of the confusion I had in relation to the P13 and P17 bayonets, so thank you all! A very nice P"18" as well.

I'm sorely tempted to venture into this area of collecting as I do have a burgeoning interest in the AEF, but I fear that once the floodgates are opened...

Collecting can become a very bad habit! nevertheless is enjoyable, and sometimes a good investment.

Also, as S>S correctly points out, the British issued 1913 Pattern American made bayonets are referred to as the Pattern 1913, and the American 1917 bayonets are referred to as the Model 1917, so the error stamped ' 1918 ' American bayonet is a ' Model 1918 ' bayonet ( albeit unofficial and unintentional ).

Regards,

LF

[jscott]

Another one for the list then...

I often use the "good investment" card to justify purchases, although I'm not sure how viable that justification is given I don't ever plan on selling any of my collection! To be honest, I find it remarkable that little pieces of great war history (whether they be bayonets, badges, helmets, maps etc) can be obtained for such a relatively small amount. The collecting angle very much compliments my interest in the war, and I do find it very satisfying.

[Mitter2k1]

Also it can be noted that the M1917 scabbard was used with the M1905 bayonet. Due to supply needs at the time it was discovered that the M1917 scabbard would work as a suitable replacement for the M1910 scabbard. I cannot recall where I read that because I would provide a link for those that would be interested.

[5thBatt]

J,

As you know, American made bayonets were also used by the British during WW1, and here is a selection of 3 American made P1913 Remington bayonets from my Collection, issued to the British.

Regards,

LF

Remington also made the P1907 bayonet.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Remington also made the P1907 bayonet.

5thBatt,

Yes, thanks for the reminder, Remington's manufacture of the P1907 bayonet is often overlooked.

Skennerton and Richardson's bayonet book estimates only 100,000 P1907 bayonets were made by Remington in the U.S., as compared with the 5 million made in Britain.

Nice to see Remington example.

Regards,

LF