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Further help with this uniform please


bertieb

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I know I have posted this photo before but having seen it enlarged it has come to light that he is holding a cane of some sort with perhaps a brass end to it? we thought earlier maybe it was a cap but know now it isn't!!!! Could this be a uniform of an officer maybe with shaped pockets on the jacket and holding a cane?? It is thought to be my great grandfather John Thomas Hill born 1887 Rippingale but still haven't found out any service records yet!!!

Are we barking up the wrong tree or is this a bad dress up photo?? Not sure if it's to be believed or not!!! Any help is greatly appreciated many thanks Bertieb xpost-65236-0-35620600-1378321171_thumb.j

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I thought the collar badges looked like they had a sphinx on, but I don't know much about the Lincs especially post war

Justin H

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I believe it's probably 1920's/very early 1930's vintage possibly, he is wearing "patrol uniform" which was a predecessor to dress blues

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Many thanks for all replies, I have been told Lincolnshire regiment but does the uniform belong to an officer or private, being a patrol uniform? (What does this mean?) The shaped pockets and dress shoes and cane give anyone any ideas? Does anyone have lots of knowledge on Lincolnshire Regiment? Many thanks Bertieb

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The blue patrol jacket is a mysterious beast. A SEARCH of this forum will find much speculation.

It was NOT an official issue to other ranks except for very special post 1914 events such as Coronations, for soldiers specifically involved, and this in lieu of full dress [scarlet tunics] which, with a few exceptions, were never worn after 1914.

It was very popular in India before and after 1914 as a private purchase, indeed it is possible that some units issued it, funded regimentally. It was worn "walking out" in lieu of either the hot-weather whites or the cool-weather scarlet 5 button frock. It should never have been worn on a formal occasion.

The garment is also found at Home during the same period, usually by Senior NCOs as Mess or barrack dress, but not solely seniors.

The photo may well be post 1914 judging by the hair style and the shoes ............ most soldiers wore boots exclusively.

As to where, India is favourite but I cannot rule out anywhere, even Home. It might even be a Coronation year post 1914.

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How confusing, didn't realise there was so much conflicting info surrounding ww1 history!! I had hoped someone would know straight away if he was an officer with this patrol uniform on and difference with shoes and not boots. Photo was taken by a Mr Farmer of Skegness so he could have been on walkabout I suppose? The photo is a postcard type so I suppose you just walked in and got it taken? Very confusing dates as well although he was still in Grantham in 1913 that's as far as I've traced him!!!! Hope more info available, very interesting! Thanks Bertieb x

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Bertieb,

He is definitely not an officer and appears to have the rank of Private because no other rank indicators are showing.

Robert

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Why would he have a cane in his hand? What sort of private is this? Does anyone think he is actually in the army going by the uniform? This is so confusing!!!!!! Any ideas??? Bertieb

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He is in the Army and I would agree that his rank is a "Private" which is the lowest Army rank.

As for the cane, they are known as "swagger sticks" and consist of a cane/stick with a metal end cap bearing a badge or some form of insignia. They were widely carried from the late Victorian period through to the inter war period. Officers could carry them or a leather covered cane. I believe that the original intention was to keep hands out of pockets when Soldiers were walking around Town in uniform. Some civilians also carried them.

Military uniforms can be extremely difficult to sort out and positively identify a Regiment/Corps. As for Sphinx Collar Badges, there are even Male and Female variants to confuse the issue. Give me a Cap Badge any day.

Sepoy

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As an example, here is a swagger cane showing a Royal Flying Corps badge - each Regiment/Corps would have a different one. There would be a small ferrule at the other end.

These canes were "private purchase" items and not generally issued to the men.

Sepoy

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Why would private's carry them? Would have been helpful if he had worn or shown his cap for us!!!!! A friend did blow up the image and said there was some writing on it but not clear enough to see what it said!!!! Thanks for that!! Bertie

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Just about every photographer had a swagger stick in his props box. You'll see soldiers of all ranks posing for the 'Hallo Mum' photo and I suspect this desire to look good is behind many of the puzzling uniform embellishments in WW1 studio photos.

Peter B

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Where as Photographers would certainly have such props available, swagger sticks were widely carried whilst at a Home Station or a Colonial Station (I am certain that they would have just got in the way on Active Service). As stated above they were designed to hold and keep hands out of pockets - they are far to flimsy to use as a walking stick. I am also certain that they were used to whip life into unfortunate Servants...

I have attached a photograph of a group of Royal Fusiliers at Epsom, probably from one of the Public School Battalions, showing swagger sticks being carried away from a photographers studio and prop box. (nb the guy showing off his arm badge is a stretcher bearer)

There are a number of militaria collectors who simply collect military swagger canes due to their variety.

Sepoy

NB Good luck on the hunt for your relative.

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Many battalion standing orders of peacetime demanded that, to be allowed to walk out, a soldier had his cane.

Regarding the stretcher bearer badge above, an entwined red/blue SB in circle, stretcher bearer TF, so not a Public Schools battalion

I think the photo is pre-war in that no economy jackets are on show.

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Many battalion standing orders of peacetime demanded that, to be allowed to walk out, a soldier had his cane.

Regarding the stretcher bearer badge above, an entwined red/blue SB in circle, stretcher bearer TF, so not a Public Schools battalion

I think the photo is pre-war in that no economy jackets are on show.

Interesting comment about the "SB" badge, I had not realised that this was a Territorial Force badge. The photograph is war time as all the men are wearing 1914 Pattern Equipment Belts which was not approved until 30th August, 1914.

Also I have concerns about these men being members of the Territorial Force, for the following reasons:-

1. None of the men are wearing the Imperial Service badge, but I assume it is quite possible that they have not signed to serve overseas.

2. The Royal Fusiliers did not have any Territorial Battalions, only affiliated (City of London) Battalions)(Royal Fusiliers) of the London Regiment, admittedly wearing the same cap badge.

3. The card is also clearly marked as being taken in Epsom and comes with others showing the construction of a war time hutted encampment at Epsom. I have also had a quick glance through Brigadier E A James's Battalion movements on the Long Long Trail it appears that none of the City of London Battalions were stationed at Epsom whereas the PS Battalions were.

Is it possible that a "New Army" man would use a TF badge, if nothing else was laying around?

Bertieb

This is a classic example of how deciphering Military photographs can be difficult!

Sepoy

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Grumpy,

Afraid I have to go with Sepoy on this one.

Attached shows UPS at Woodcote Park Epsom, man on right wearing TF badge as above.

regards

John

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OK I am content, it would not be the first time a badge was worn without formal authority, its a trivial matter compared to what these lads were to face.

I'll post a photo of the badge.

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