A helmet by any other name

[Khaki]

It seems odd that the Brodie doesnt seem to be a name that was in common useage by the rank and file, I would have thought that a short name like brodie would have been in common useage. I have read about tin hat, battle bowler etc but nothing in the ordinary soldiers writing about brodie/ brodies. Has anyone seen soldier references to the brodie?

khaki

[T8HANTS]

I doubt if anyone knew it by that name during the war. I suspect the name only started to circulate when it became fashionable to collect what most ex-soldiers thought of as junk.

G

[Khaki]

Fair comment, what was the official description of the helmet? I think as far as common useage 'tin hat' is the one I heard most from veterans.

khaki

[GRANVILLE]

I personally do not think 'brodie' was in common usage during the war. This taken from the diary of Captain J.C. Dunn: March 9th 1915: "Steel helmets issued. Many did not know them by any other name than 'tin-hat.; 'Battle-bowler' strove for a few days for recognition....." Can be read in wider context in 'The War the Infantry knew' Chapter 7.

[Khaki]

It's very interesting that the labels we have put on things were not known or in common useage at the time. It begs the question, are we in danger unwittingly of rewriting or influencing the interpretation of history?

khaki

[Jerry B]

It's very interesting that the labels we have put on things were not known or in common useage at the time. It begs the question, are we in danger unwittingly of rewriting or influencing the interpretation of history?

khaki

I am not sure if it is so yet with British items, but certainly for WWII German items -I know off topic- there is a whole plethora of collector inspired nomenclature that is used for helmets, caps, tunic etc.. that would not have been used at the time.

[T8HANTS]

"Hate belt" is I believe the daft dealer applied term for a belt or strap with collections of badges on. I don't think my father hated any of the soldiers he cadged a cap-badge off to put on his, but he was 13 in 1939. I also suspect that to be captured wearing a belt containing exclusively items from the gentlemen from the other side would make your time as POW possibly quite brief. That said the photographic evidence for British troops wearing Turkish belts is quite common, and during the 60's and 70's every junk shop had one, which is why I never got around to buying one. Oh dear!

G

[Chester837]

I suspect that he use of the term 'Brodie' only came about once more then one type of helmet existed, to differentiate it from its successors. A bit like cars. The Mk1 Escort only appeared once the Mk2 was produced; before that it was just a Ford Escort.

[Greg]

I didn't hear the term 'Brodie' until the 1990s when I ran across material by American collectors and re-enactors. I think it is collector speak! Members of my family who wore them always spoke of steel helmets, tin hats, or occasionally battle bowlers, never Brodies! Tin hat seems to have been the most common useage

Greg

[centurion]

Brophy and Partridge have an entry calling it a "Steel Jug" and a "Tin Hat" naming the inventor as Alfred Bates so "Brodie" does not seem to have been associated with it until at least the 30s or later

[GRANVILLE]

D

Brophy and Partridge have an entry calling it a "Steel Jug" and a "Tin Hat" naming the inventor as Alfred Bates so "Brodie" does not seem to have been associated with it until at least the 30s or later

Have you got any more information on Alfred Bates?

David

[super6]

Does that mean that Shrapnel Helmet is a modern(ish) expression?

[centurion]

D

Have you got any more information on Alfred Bates?

David

He was one of the founders of Willis & Bates of Halifax Yorkshire. They were a company that specialised in producing domed steel shapes and as such produced a range of pressurised cookers and lamps with a domed pressure vessel. A major supplier of these to the British Army in both world wars. Bates died in 1930 apparently attempting to rescue someone from drowning. There were numerous references to him as the inventor of the British helmet - here is one from a Canadian paper

Whatever the truth of this it does suggest that the name Brodie was not generally associated with the helmet at the time.

[Grovetown]

He was one of the founders of Willis & Bates of Halifax Yorkshire. They were a company that specialised in producing domed steel shapes and as such produced a range of pressurised cookers and lamps with a domed pressure vessel. A major supplier of these to the British Army in both world wars. Bates died in 1930 apparently attempting to rescue someone from drowning. There were numerous references to him as the inventor of the British helmet - here is one from a Canadian paper

bates.jpg

Whatever the truth of this it does suggest that the name Brodie was not generally associated with the helmet at the time.

The War Office cttee that elected the design first met in August 1915 to consider a number of design submissions. (An earlier one in June had ordered French Adrians). Brodie's - then an employee of the Army & Navy Store - was just one of those submissions; and it may be reasonable perhaps to assume therefore Bates was another. Brodie patented his design in August 1915 too.

That said, he's not mentioned in the perceived definitive account of the Brodie's development by Marcus Cotton, not it as revised by Mike Haselgrove and Branislav Radovic.

Also: Willis & Bates is not on the published lists of steel suppliers, nor helmet manufacturers (and some did both),

Mike Haselgrove comments here occasionally: he might have some insight into Bates's design and its fate.

Cheers,

GT.

[GRANVILLE]

He was one of the founders of Willis & Bates of Halifax Yorkshire. They were a company that specialised in producing domed steel shapes and as such produced a range of pressurised cookers and lamps with a domed pressure vessel. A major supplier of these to the British Army in both world wars. Bates died in 1930 apparently attempting to rescue someone from drowning. There were numerous references to him as the inventor of the British helmet - here is one from a Canadian paper

bates.jpg

Whatever the truth of this it does suggest that the name Brodie was not generally associated with the helmet at the time.

I don't mind admitting to being taken by surprise at this information about Alfred Bates, a name I have never heard mention of before. I do question the suggestion there are plenty of references to him, I can only find three on the Internet, all quoting small newspapers articles making mention of him as the inventor of the "tin hat." Despite coming from Halifax, Yorkshire, the newspapers are two Canadian and one from Singapore, which seems a bit odd. A cursory search on the GWF also seems to have no mention him until now. I have certainly been under the impression for many years that John Brodie designed/invented the British steel helmet. Does history need rewriting?

David

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here is a cartoon by the well known WW1 cartoonist Capt. Bruce Bairnsfather, who was himself gassed in the trenches during WW1. In his cartoon, he interestingly refers to the Brodie helmet as a ' Shrapnel Helmet '.

LF

" Still Keeping His Hand In.

Private Smith (late Shinio, the popular juggler) appreciably lowers the protective value of his section's shrapnel helmets by practising his celebrated plate and basin spinning act. "

[GRANVILLE]

LF,

"Shrapnel helmet," "Battle bowler, "Tin hat," (as opposed to "Brass hat") were all early terms used to describe the helmet, but at some point in time (quite possibly after the war), it became associated so strongly with Brodie, that it has widely been known as such for many years.

David

[centurion]

I don't mind admitting to being taken by surprise at this information about Alfred Bates, a name I have never heard mention of before. I do question the suggestion there are plenty of references to him, I can only find three on the Internet, all quoting small newspapers articles making mention of him as the inventor of the "tin hat." Despite coming from Halifax, Yorkshire, the newspapers are two Canadian and one from Singapore, which seems a bit odd. A cursory search on the GWF also seems to have no mention him until now. I have certainly been under the impression for many years that John Brodie designed/invented the British steel helmet. Does history need rewriting?

David

You're the one who asked for more info on Bates. His factory was at Reservoir Road Halifax and ceased trading in 1997. I have seen many other references to hime and the helmet other than in news papers - as the Halifax man go seek. I wasn't trying to prove or disprove who made the helmets merely pointing out that in 1930 Brodie does not appear to have been the name associated with them - can anyone produce contemporary references? If Brophy and Partridge thought that Bates was the inventor (see The Long Trail)

then there must have been a number of soldiers who considered Bates the inventor - that's all.

BTW I think Battle Bowler is a mainly WW2 reference B&P have it as officers only slang in WW1

[Lancashire Fusilier]

John Leopold Brodie patented his steel helmet design in August 1915.

Attached is his August 16, 1915 helmet design - technical specification drawing.

LF

C/o J. Bodworth - British Uniforms of the Great War

[GRANVILLE]

You're the one who asked for more info on Bates. His factory was at Reservoir Road Halifax and ceased trading in 1997. I have seen many other references to hime and the helmet other than in news papers - as the Halifax man go seek. I wasn't trying to prove or disprove who made the helmets merely pointing out that in 1930 Brodie does not appear to have been the name associated with them - can anyone produce contemporary references? If Brophy and Partridge thought that Bates was the inventor (see The Long Trail)

then there must have been a number of soldiers who considered Bates the inventor - that's all.

BTW I think Battle Bowler is a mainly WW2 reference B&P have it as officers only slang in WW1

Indeed I am curious to find out more and have tried seeking to find just three references on the Internet in a speculative search. I appreciate you are not suggesting anything other than Bates is regarded by some as the inventor. Fascinating stuff, all new to me.

David

[GRANVILLE]

I know Brodie was directly involved in the improving of the properties of the steel used - you can see and read all about this in the Kelham Island Industrial Museum, Sheffield, so I'm wondering if he became more associated with the helmet for that reason and Bate's input has been overshadowed as a result?

David

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here are 2 further references to Alfred Bates.

LF

" Vapalux is the trade name for lanterns made by Willis and Bates, Pellon Works, Reservoir Road, Halifax, England . Although Willis and Bates have been involved in lantern design and manufacture since 1912, the Vapalux name was first used in 1938. Before then, the company had been involved in metal spinnings, a process where cylindrical or domed components could be made from flat sheets. The proprietor, Alfred Bates, chose Halifax for the location of his business in 1897, building the Pellon factory around 1900. The company diversified and moved into metal forming, a process of shaping components, again from flat sheets, by compressing between two shaped dies. The growing industry of the early 20th century was interrupted by WW2, and like so many other companies, Willis & Bates were preoccupied with production for the war effort in those years. The Willis & Bates web site has a pertinent comment that ".... it is rumoured that Alfred Bates may have been the originator of the steel helmet, although such a claim cannot presently be substantiated. "

" As a company, Willis & Bates dates back to the 1800s, moving to Halifax in the last few years of that century to take advantage of the engineering opportunities offered by thetextile industry in the region. The current factory, named the Pellon Works, was built in Reservoir Road and was completed in 1900. Initially, the company made spun-metal parts for the textile industry but they soon diversified into making parts for other industries, particularly those of the gas and the rapidly developing electrical industries of the time. There is a possibility that one of the company's founders, Alfred Bates, was responsible for the design and manufacture of the military steel helmet, although this is unsubstantiated at present.

At the end of World War I, Willis & Bates diversified further and became involved in the manufacture of parts for Petromax paraffin pressure lamps and lanterns. In 1925 they started making lamp and lantern parts for the Tilley company, a relationship which lasted until 1938 when Willis & Bates began manufacturing and selling lanterns on their own. "

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I know Brodie was directly involved in the improving of the properties of the steel used - you can see and read all about this in the Kelham Island Industrial Museum, Sheffield, so I'm wondering if he became more associated with the helmet for that reason and Bate's input has been overshadowed as a result?

David

David,

A good point, and with Bate's Company, Willis & Bates, working on metal forming and shaping, perhaps Brodie went to them to have work done on his helmet designs and prototypes, hence the possible connection between the two men.

Regards,

LF

[Khaki]

Interesting research LF, do you know if there was there a 'patent' for the helmet

(sorry just reread your reference in previous post about the patent.}

khaki

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Interesting research LF, do you know if there was there a 'patent' for the helmet

(sorry just reread your reference in previous post about the patent.}

khaki

khaki,

Inside the Brodie Mark I helmet liner there is a red inked stamped label, giving his Patent No. :-

BRODIE'S STEEL HELMET

Registered No. 651,999

WAR OFF PATTERN

PATENT No. 11803/15

Regards,

LF