HMS P32 and Officer

[Matt Dixon]

Can anyone tell me any information about either this ship or this officer?

Thanks in advance if you can!

[DirtyDick]

Try this link, he is number 4 on the first tranche of names:

http://www.remembering.org.uk/royal_navy.htm

Richard

[Matt Dixon]

That's interesting as they have newbery listed as a christian name.

DOI....Drowned Other Incident??

Do you know what the memorial initials stand for?

[DirtyDick]

I immediately assumed DOI to be an abbreviation of 'Died of Injuries'. (Perhaps a distinction for not dying of wounds directly attributable to enemy action.)

I assume the information in the right-hand columns gives grave location in a Cheltenham area cemetery and that the 'Newbury' was just termed as a forename rather than a part of the surname either in error or for the sake of uniformity. (Many medals, for example, will consider only the last part of a double-barrelled name as the surname for registration etc. e.g. in this case L.W.N. rather than just L.W.)

It may be worth contacting the Site since they obviously got their memorial information from somewhere - never know, they may be tons of details about the chap. Otherwise, you would be able to get his papers from the PRO/NA.

Richard

[Matt Dixon]

Thanks I will get in touch with them. I have never heard of the expression Died of Injuries in military circles, I have seen one DOA (Died of Accident). Curious......

[Terry Denham]

I have seen DoI on several occasions - usually referring to the result of an accident.

RFC/RAF casualties often have this abbreviation in documents/books when they died through an air crash unrelated to enemy action.

[Terry Denham]

P32 was a 'P' Class patrol boat of 613 tons. 230 x 24ft. 2 x torpedo tubes & 1 x 4" gun.

P32 was built by Harkness, Middlesbrough and launched 20.01.16. Sold 01.12.21 to a firm called Stanlee.

[Peter B]

Hello Matt

had a look at the site and there is a list of aberviations see this link

http://www.remembering.org.uk/roll_of_honour.htm.

DOI is stated as died of illness

Peter

[Matt Dixon]

Pete and Terry,

Thanks for the information, I can feel a few more emails coming on that need to be sent!

[kin47]

LT Lawrence W. Newberry-Boschetti, RNR. Newberry-Boshetti is a hypenation last name.

This officer died of illness, although you will usually see D.O.I. as died of injuries as opposed to died of wounds.

don

[Matt Dixon]

If he died of illness, why was the name of his ship included, would that not be more appropriate if he died in action on the ship, as opposed to dying of illness? I suppose he could have been on board when he died.

[Michael Lowrey]

There's one notable event that P 32 was involved in. On December 2, 1917 the new German submarine UB 81 under the command of Pour le Merite winner Oblt.z.S. Reinhold Saltzwedel hit a mine near the Owers Lightship and sank by the stern. The waters were shallow enough and the damage at the extreme stern, so that the submarine could blow all ballast forward and get her bow to the surface. A torpedo tube was opened and seven men, including the WO and LI, climbed out and proceeded to fire off distress signals.

P 32 was among the vessels that responded and maneuvered in position at the bow. However, in doing so, she struck the U-boat, puncturing a ballast tank (or merely pushing the bow under, I've seen both versions) and the submarine went down instantly with a still open torpedo tube, drowning the crew still on board, including Saltzwedel. Six of the seven men that had previously escaped through the torpedo tube were rescued.

Best wishes,

Michael

[kin47]

The command shown is the ship or establishment that held his pay ledger at the time of his death. Had he been transferred ashore, his pay record would have followed him for pay and victualling purposed and he would have been shown at PEMBROKE, etc.

From the date, one might presume he died of the influenza epidemic. Newberry-Boschetti and three ratings died in that ten day period from P 32, as did many others in other commands.

The situation with the influenza was very grave at this point and there might not have been a hospital at the port she was berthed or facilities to deal with the illnesses.

don

[Stephen Nulty]

Matt

Some details from a previous thread

http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=10532

SN

[Guest ThoKri]

P 32 was among the vessels that responded and maneuvered in position at the bow. However, in doing so, she struck the U-boat, puncturing a ballast tank (or merely pushing the bow under, I've seen both versions) and the submarine went down instantly with a still open torpedo tube, drowning the crew still on board, including Saltzwedel. Six of the seven men that had previously escaped through the torpedo tube were rescued.

Best wishes,

Michael

What are the sources of your "seen versions"? Are they available to public? Any names available of the 6 men rescued? I am interested in any information about the end of UB 81, because a brother of my grandmother died in that u-boat. His name was Heinrich Lettermann.

Regards,

Thomas

P.S.: I am new here - and my English writing is not the best. Excuse any mistakes.

[Michael Lowrey]

Thomas,

There's extensive material available about the sinking of UB 81. Your relative was one of the U-boat's radio operators.

The survivors were the WO, Leutnant zur See Hermann Freudendal, the LI, Marine Ingenieur Hans Denker, Maschinistenmaat Paul Redlin, Matrose Karl Blunk, Matrose Kirchbaum, and Steuermann Bäthge.

The crewman outside of the submarine not rescued was Maschinistenmaat Heinrich Borries.

Freudendal, Denker, Redlin and Blunk gave extensive summaries of the events, the first three in 1919 when they returned to Germany, Blunk later. These accounts, in English translation, are in Dwight Messimer's book Verschollen: World War I U-Boat Losses. The original copies should be at BAMA Freiburg. The NARA microfilm of the UB 81's KTB will contain these as well -- that's where Dwight got them from (I can probably get you a scan of these in the original German).

In my notes, I have that P 32's logs survive as well, and are at Kew (ADM 53/56393). There may be additional survivor interviews at Kew as well.

Best wishes,

Michael

[Guest ThoKri]

Thomas,

(I can probably get you a scan of these in the original German).

In my notes, I have that P 32's logs survive as well, and are at Kew (ADM 53/56393). There may be additional survivor interviews at Kew as well.

Michael,

thank you for your detailed response. I am moved to hear so many details from a place 90 years ago.

It is a great help for me, if you get scans of the original German stories. I will pay your expenses.

Because I am new in military research: what ist Kew? Can you give me a web-adress or mail-adress please.

Again, thank you very much for your help

Thomas

[Michael Lowrey]

Thomas,

The (British) National Archives are at Kew, Richmond, Surrey. It's often just referred to as TNA or Kew.

Link: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.htm

Best wishes,

Michael

[Guest ThoKri]

Michael,

there is another question regarding UB 81: I saw on websites of the diving community, it may be possible that UB 81 will become a "protected wreck" soon. What does this mean?

Regards

Thomas

[Michael Lowrey]

Thomas,

Some divers are a bit naughty. Some are very naughty. Which gives rise to the move towards designating certain military wrecks as "protected places."

"Diving is not prohibited on an aircraft or vessel designated as a Protected Place. However, it is an offence to conduct unlicensed diving or salvage operations to tamper with, damage, remove or unearth any remains or enter any hatch or other opening. Essentially, diving is permitted on a ‘look but don’t touch’ basis only."

More: http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-environm...cted-wrecks.htm

Best wishes,

Michael

[historydavid]

Michael,

How does "Protected Place" compare to "War Grave" in relation to a sunken vessel?

Best wishes

David

[Michael Lowrey]

David,

Whether or not a wreck in UK waters is a war grave, British, German, or otherwise, does not restrict diving on the site. Only when a wreck is designated a “protected place” or a “controlled site” (an even stronger level of protection — no diving allowed without a difficult to obtain permit) do legal protections apply.

Best wishes,

Michael

[Guest ThoKri]

Freudendal, Denker, Redlin and Blunk gave extensive summaries of the events, the first three in 1919 when they returned to Germany, Blunk later. These accounts, in English translation, are in Dwight Messimer's book Verschollen: World War I U-Boat Losses. The original copies should be at BAMA Freiburg. The NARA microfilm of the UB 81's KTB will contain these as well -- that's where Dwight got them from (I can probably get you a scan of these in the original German).

In my notes, I have that P 32's logs survive as well, and are at Kew (ADM 53/56393). There may be additional survivor interviews at Kew as well.

Michael,

for your information: BAMA, Freiburg, Germany, told me, that they do not have any material about UB 81 or statements from the crew members. So source of the original copies of the accounts are unknown. I contacted NARA to help me on these subject. But when you can get my a scan of these, it would be great.

I ask Kew as well to send me an cost estimation for the copies of logs of P 32 of Dec 2, 1917.

Today I recieved "Lost Patrol - Submarine Wrecks of the English Channel" from Innes McCartney, Periscope Publishing Ltd., GB including two pictures of the wreck UB 81 and some details about the sinking. In the book Innes describes appr. 90 submarines with the known details. Very interesting with a lot of pictures from serveral sources (Kew, NARA, U-Boot Archiv, Cuxhaven-Altenbruch etc.)

Best wishes

Thomas

[Michael Lowrey]

Thomas,

I'm quite familiar with Innes’ book — I handle much of the WWI material for uboat.net and also work with divers to identify submarine wrecks. Am actually in contact with him with some frequency. Lost Patrols is slightly outdated, but still quite useful.

I will pull out the NARA microlfilm roll with UB 81's KTB on it over the weekend...

Best wishes,

Michael

[Guest ThoKri]

Michael,

Innes wrote in his book Lost Patrols that there was lot of discussion (accident vs. planed ramming) about the crash between P32 and UB81. Who "discuss" that topic? Navies, historian, political scientists, newspapers?

Regards

Thomas