Royal Aero Club Certificate photographs.

[alex revell]

Hello all,

I am anxious to obtain the RAeC Certificate photographs of several early airmen who piloted James McCudden when he was still an observer in 3 Squadron in 1915/16. I have been advised that the Royal Aero Club has recently sold their albums - and the rights - containing all such photographs to the American Company, Ancestry. If this is so, I think this is a disgraceful act on the part of the RAeClub: that part of our aviation heritage should have been sold to allow a commercial American company to charge for access if one wants to use any such photographs to illlustrate the part played by these courageous young men in early British aviation. Such a thing would never have been allowed in Sir Peter Masefield's day. Many years ago, Sir Peter very kindly gave me permission to use any photographs I wished.

Does anyone have any further thoughts on this.

Disgusted of Cornwall

Alex R

[chrissparrow]

Thanks Alex,

No amused either! Do you have the names of the pilots who flew McCudden around?

Chris

[Pighills]

Whilst you are dismayed the photo collection has been sold to Ancestry (this happened at least 3/4 years ago BTW) I personally am thrilled about it.

I'm a member of Ancestry and have taken advantage of the collection being available to members, finding photos of 'my men' which I hadn't previously got.

Previous to Ancestry's acquisition I didn't know the collection was available to access and even if I had I would have incurred costs in travel, copying, etc. Ancestry now having possession has opened up the collection to the wider public. For that I am thankful.

[Airshipped]

Last year I had occasion to source some of the RAeC photos but encountered one or two references elsewhere to assertions of copyright by the original owners, i.e. whatever about the sale of physical volumes for digital archiving and licensing it apparently didn't extinguish ownership rights. (I ended up with a lengthy set of disclaimers attaching to each image used, as a belt-and-braces approach).

Personally I'm happy that the Royal Aero Club Trust has benefitted and that it opens up the realm of military and aviation history those who pay for subscription services for other genealogical resources, e.g. there'll be thousands out there who'll experience their first encounter with aviation history through these records now appearing on their search radar.

You've written so many excellent works it unfortunately must feel like an important part of heritage has been sold but if it's any consolation it could be to now think of accessing it like any other research cost, and that up until recently that cost of ownership which had facilitated researchers was a cost that had been borne by the RAeC.

[Errol Martyn]

I think you will find that the Royal Aero Club Trust still holds the original albums (apart from one that has been missing for many years). Ancestry.com made low res scans of the album photos and these are what appear on its site.

Errol

[NigelS]

Alex, Ancestry gives this on the Aero Club records:

Ancestry.com. Great Britain, Royal Aero Club Aviators’ Certificates, 1910-1950 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2008.

Original data: Royal Aero Club. Royal Aero Club index cards and photographs are in the care of the Royal Air Force Museum, Hendon, London, England.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1283

This information may be out of date of course, but I would have thought that like TNA, with its records that can be accessed through Ancestry, that the RAFM at Hendon would have held on to the originals - If this is not the case, I agree with your concerns.

NigelS

[Old Owl]

I would agree with Errol. The albums, I believe, are still held by the museum at Hendon and are most probably still available for inspection to visitors and researchers alike.

[alex revell]

Thanks for all those insteresting answers and viewpoints. Back in the 1970s, Sir Peter Masefield very kindly made available to me the RAeC Certificate photos of some of the pilots in 56 Sqdn. There was no question then of any payment for reproduction, only for the cost of the prints to be made - this was pre digital, computer age - which was fair enough. My feeling is that historical records, or indeed any knowledge in this digital age, should be free for all, not held by a commercial company for profit. I'm given to understand from one scource that Ancestry is busy 'siphoning' up church and other UK records to hold the copyright and charge people to access them. I agree that this may save people who are researching travelling costs etc., but I still feel that public records should be available to view free of charge. One isn't charged for viewing records in the National Archives, for instance, and there is now no restriction on photographing any documents one wishes, which after all is only another method of making notes, whether written or having zeroxed by the archive.

[Pighills]

Ancestry do offer some church records to view as part of their member packages, but the original registers are still held by the churches. Even at County archives you only ever get to see digitised copies of the original records.

Yes, you can see records at TNA for free (as you can at County archives and libraries, dependant upon them having the resources you wish to see of course), but that still involves a great deal of expense in travel and hotel costs, not to mention the time it all takes, so whilst the viewing off the records may cost nothing, the whole exercise isn't really 'free'.

I'm all for the originals being kept in situ, where they belong. But I also think digitising and making them accessible to all and sundry opens up research to so many people who may never have been able to gain access previously, as well as making it a darn sight easier for the rest of us.

[Simon Birch]

It is some time ago now but when I wanted some pictures of Jack Gilmour Ancestry put me in contact with the RACA - they copied all I wanted and posted me a CD. I made a donation of £10 (I think it was £10 anyway) They pictures I received were high resolution and worth every penny.

Simon

[NigelS]

One thing to bear in mind, Ancestry are most likely to have picked up the tab for digitizing, which, even though access to their records has to be paid for (as Pighills mentioned above free at most good libraries, TNA etc) means that the records are far more widely available than they would have been had Ancestry not digitized them. As far as I'm concerned, like important works of art, original archive material of any sort shouldn't be allowed to leave their native country (this isn't the case with certain UK pre WW1 merchant seamen's records which IIRC ended up - no idea why - with a Newfoundland University)

NigelS

[Pighills]

....................(this isn't the case with certain UK pre WW1 merchant seamen's records which IIRC ended up - no idea why - with a Newfoundland University)

NigelS

Some Merchant Navy records can be found at Southampton archives. I can't recall exactly what they hold, as it's over ten years ago since I contacted them on the off chance, and out of desperation, enquiring after my granddad. I received back in the post the only known existing photo of him. One very happy lady!

[NigelS]

Thanks Kim, it was Crew Agreements 1861-1938 I was thinking of Click ; the NMM reckon that 70% are held in Newfoundland

NigelS