What to do when you dig up a skeleton in your garden?

[margaretdufay]

Thought this might be of interest, it was an article from the Voix du Nord in the town of Beuvry

http://www.lavoixdunord.fr/region/que-faire-lorsqu-on-deterre-un-squelette-dans-son-jardin-ia29b0n1499663

mags

[Seadog]

Comme je ne lis pas français pouvez-vous s'il vous plaît traduire l'essentiel de l'article en anglais

Merci

(Google translate so this could mean anything!)

Norman

[ph0ebus]

Comme je ne lis pas français pouvez-vous s'il vous plaît traduire l'essentiel de l'article en anglais

Merci

(Google translate so this could mean anything!)

Norman

Not too bad. But not too good either.

Daniel (who is off to read the article)

[margaretdufay]

Dans l’Arrageois, épicentre d’un conflit terriblement meurtrier durant la Grande Guerre, il n’est pas exceptionnel, à retourner la terre, de tomber sur des vestiges d’armes ou d’obus, mais de temps à autre aussi... sur un os ! Plusieurs même. Bref, d’exhumer les dépouilles de soldats, qu’ils soient britanniques, canadiens, français ou allemands, morts au champ d’honneur il y a bientôt presque cent ans... Mais que faire quand cette découverte a lieu dans votre jardin, là même où vous songiez à faire pousser votre potager ou à installer votre piscine... ?

In the Arras area, epicenter of a horrendeous deadly conflict during the Great War, it is not an unusual thing to dig up some weapon remains or shells, but also from time to time to dig up a bone. Even several. In short, to unearth the remains of soldiers, whether they be British, Canadian, French or German, who died in the battlefield nearly a hundred years ago. But when this discovery is made in your garden, where you thought you would grow your vegetable patch or build a swimming pool.

That's all I can view for the moment, as I have already viewed my number of articles for the month, if anyone can post the rest of the article, I would be more than happy to translate it.

mags

V

[Seadog]

Perhaps another member will be able to provide translated details. In particular whether the nationality of the soldier(s) is known and who or what organization is assuming responsibility for the exhumation of both the remains and any artifacts present which may help to provide a positive Identification.

Norman

[margaretdufay]

Norman, if you go on the site and paste the rest of the article, I can give you the gist of it.

mags

[Seadog]

Here it is:

Dans l’Arrageois, épicentre d’un conflit terriblement meurtrier durant la Grande Guerre, il n’est pas exceptionnel, à retourner la terre, de tomber sur des vestiges d’armes ou d’obus, mais de temps à autre aussi... sur un os ! Plusieurs même. Bref, d’exhumer les dépouilles de soldats, qu’ils soient britanniques, canadiens, français ou allemands, morts au champ d’honneur il y a bientôt presque cent ans... Mais que faire quand cette découverte a lieu dans votre jardin, là même où vous songiez à faire pousser votre potager ou à installer votre piscine... ?

« On a trouvé des nonosses chez nono ! » Forcément un brin moqueurs, ses voisins et amis le surnomment même depuis Dupont de Ligonnès. Mais Arnaud, dont tous les membres de la famille sont aussi bien en chair qu’en os, rassurez-vous, n’a rien d’un tueur compulsif. Et ce sont bien des bribes du squelette d’un soldat de 1914-1918 que les ouvriers de l’entreprise paysagiste qui labouraient son terrain, il y a trois semaines de ça, à Neuville-Vitasse, ont déterrés. Même s’ils ont d’abord songé, en ramassant ce gros fémur jonchant le sol, qu’il s’agissait de la dépouille d’un animal gisant là depuis des lustres, en tout cas avant que les pâtures neuvilloises ne fassent l’objet de quelque appétit immobilier. Oui, mais alors comment expliquer que la vache était armée ? Car ce sont bien les vestiges du canon d’un fusil qui ont aussi été découverts, jouxtant les ossements. À l’instar de morceaux de semelles, et quand bien même auraient-elles été en peau de vache, ce n’est sans doute pas cette dernière qui les avait accrochées au dos de ses sabots... !

On plaisante, mais quand l’entrepreneur a appelé Arnaud, qui travaillait, pour l’avertir qu’on avait exhumé un corps dans son jardin, notre homme est un peu tombé des nues. Que faire ? Il a alors appelé la mairie, qui a elle-même averti les gendarmes de la brigade de Vis-en-Artois. C’est le bon réflexe. En ce que les forces de l’ordre doivent d’abord constater les faits et mener des investigations destinées à exclure - ou pas ! - la thèse d’un homicide. Une fois la piste criminelle écartée, il leur reste à repérer la présence d’artefacts, soit tout objet fabriqué par l’homme, entourant la dépouille, et à protéger l’ensemble. Le temps d’avertir les services qui leur paraît le plus adéquat : des archéologues ou la Commonwealth War Graves Commission de Beaurains, habilitée depuis 1951, en vertu d’une convention ratifiée par la France, à prendre en charge les dépouilles des soldats des 1re et 2e Guerres mondiales. C’est donc un officier d’exhumation de la CWGC qui s’est rendu chez Arnaud.

Mais qui était donc ce soldat extirpé des entrailles du sous-sol de Neuville-Vitasse ?

Difficile de le dire, en ce qu’il aurait fallu, soit à l’officier d’exhumation de la Commonwealth War Graves Commission, soit à l’archéologue arrageois Alain Jacques ou à l’un de ses pairs, procéder à quelques fouilles complémentaires pour le découvrir. Les seuls indices aujourd’hui en leur possession - un morceau rouillé et oxydé du canon d’un fusil et les vestiges des semelles d’une paire de chaussures ou de bottes - ne sont pas suffisants, loin de là. « Si on avait fouillé, on aurait peut-être retrouvé davantage d’effets personnels du soldat, regrette Alain Jacques. Une plaque ou un disque d’identification, des boutons, un d’uniforme, des morceaux de tissu... Mais là, sachant qu’il n’est pas rare de retrouver des soldats allemands enterrés avec des chaussures de Poilu français, et vice versa, difficile de se prononcer. Compte-tenu du lieu, ça peut aussi bien être un Français des Batailles de l’Artois de 1914-1915 qu’un Britannique de la Bataille d’Arras d’avril 1917.Voire même un Allemand. On est là très proche de la ligne de front, en plein champ de bataille... » L’archéologue arrageois est d’autant plus amer de ne pouvoir intervenir systématiquement sur ce genre de chantier que chaque fouille est pour lui l’occasion d’en apprendre davantage sur le déroulé des événements pendant la Grande Guerre. Comme les pratiques funéraires. « Ce genre de découverte peut nous en apprendre sur la façon dont on a pris soin à l’époque des dépouilles de l’ennemi, ou pas d’ailleurs... »

Inconnu ad vitam aeternam ?

On ne connaîtra donc sans doute jamais l’identité de ce soldat. Et ça, c’est de nature à bouleverser Nelly, qui travaille à la Commonwealth War Graves Commission de Beaurains et intervient tout au long de l’année sur ce genre de découvertes. « Sans stopper très longtemps les travaux, par une fouille méthodique, on est souvent en mesure de retrouver des effets personnels du soldat, qui vont nous aider à l’identifier, et donc à remonter le temps et retracer son histoire. Et le cas échéant à avertir ses descendants » Ce qui, s’il s’agit d’un combattant britannique, n’est pas anodin, au regard du haut intérêt que les familles Outre-Manche (et Outre-Atlantique s’il est question de Canadiens) portent à la mémoire de leur aïeux, venus ici il y maintenant presque cent ans rétablir la paix en Europe... Les 20, 21 et 22 août derniers, dans le Nord - Pas-de-Calais et en Picardie, une dizaine de soldats britanniques, dont certains avaient pu être identifiés, ont eu droit à des cérémonies d'inhumations officielles, en présence de représentants des ambassades de leur pays d’origine et parfois même de leur famille. « Nous avons actuellement une soixantaine de dépouilles en attente d’inhumation. Des cérémonies comme celles-là, très émouvantes et à laquelle j’invite tout le monde à venir assister, pour comprendre (le tout étant d’être vêtu décemment), il y en aura beaucoup pendant les commémorations du centenaire de la Grande Guerre, en 2014-2018 », précise Nelly.

[margaretdufay]

Thanks Norman, I will try and do it for tomorrow, for at the moment I am busy e mailing photos of graves to someone and that's taking up quite a bit of time, but thanks for posting the whole of the article I will try and do it justice

mags

[Seadog]

Thank you for your efforts looking forward to reading the main details.

Norman

[margaretdufay]

A bit more of the article

Bones were found at Nono’s. “With a hint of mockery, his neighbours and friends have since been calling him Dupont de Ligonnes. But Arnaud, whose family members are, rest assured, in good health, is nothing of a serial killer. And these are fragments of a skeleton of a soldier of the 1914-1918 war that the workers of the landscaping company, who were digging over his garden, that were unearthed in his garden three weeks before in Neuville Vitasse. Even if at first, when picking up the large thigh bone they thought it belonged to an animal that had been lying there for ages in the Neuville pastures before becoming the target of land developers. Yes, but how could they explain that the cow had been armed? For next to the remains,a barrel of a rifle was also discovered. Like the pieces of soles, and even if they had been made of cow leather, it was highly unlikely that they were attached to clogs by cows.

We are joking, but when the entrepreneur called Arnaud, who was working, to warn him that à body had been unearthed in his garden, our man was taken by surprise. What should he do? He called the town hall, which then called the gendarmes from the Vis en Artois Brigade. That was the best thing to do. And it is the Police Force who must decide on the facts and to lead the investigations destined to exclude or not the theses of a homicide. Once the criminal track has been put aside, they have to see if any artifacts are present, and any manmade object, surrounging the body, and to protect the whole site. The time to inform the necessary services. The archeologists of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission of Beaurains, who are authorized since 1951, under the terms of an agreement signed by France, to be responsible for the remains of the soldiers of the first and second World Wars. That is why an exhumation Officer from the CWGC went to see Arnaud.

[ph0ebus]

It would be wonderful if they could find artefacts to prove who he was.

At least in this case, it looks like he will be remaining another unknown.

Norman, that last paragraph will likely be of particular interest to you...

-Daniel

[pylon1357]

Thank the techno lords for google translate in chrome. Without it I would certainly be lost more often than I am. Thanks for posting the link to this story. Alas, it seems the identity, or even the nationality of this fallen soldier will remain a mystery.

[Seadog]

Thanks Mags for further translating the story, is this article for real?

Quotes

Yes, but how could they explain that the cow had been armed?

It was highly unlikely that they were attached to clogs by cows.

With a hint of mockery, his neighbours and friends have since been calling him Dupont de Ligonnes. But Arnaud, whose family members are, rest assured, in good health, is nothing of a serial killer.

This makes the UK Daily Star look like an academic journal and how do we know that he cannot be identified even as to nationality for the chances are that buttons etc will be in-situ plus apparently a rifle.

Norman

[egbert]

If the poor soul cannot be identified by nationality- where will he be re interred? A CWGC-, German-, French-, or whatever cemetery?

[Seadog]

Egbert what is the round object on the extreme right, is it a skull or a helmet, If it is a helmet then it looks German plus if I understand the article a rifle or at least part of one has been found which should help with ID.

Norman

[egbert]

I would say it is similar to a German helmet....and do I see a boot?....there must be more artifact evidence in the grave-pit looking at the integrity of the skelleton.....

[spof]

From MAgs' translation:

For next to the remains,a barrel of a rifle was also discovered.

That should provide a clue to nationality and maybe the remains of the boots too. No mention of an identity disc but Forum member CROONAERT might be able to tell which amries were using compressed fibre or steel if this is a 1917 casualty.

[Kath]

Is there more than one soldier?

There seems a lot of bones.

Kath.

[jay dubaya]

There looks to be at least 3 rib cages in this grave and if indeed that is a helmet it looks fairy well preserved, so should we expect to see other metalic objects along with the rifle which may lead to identification of nationality if nothing else

jon

[margaretdufay]

But who was this soldier exhumed from the bowels of the earth of Neuville-Vitasse.

Difficult to say, it would have been necessary for either the Exhumation Officer of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, or the Arras archeologist Alain Jacques or one of his colleagues, to proceed with further digging to discover this. The only clues today in their possession – a rusty oxydised piece of a barrel of a rifle and the remains of soles of a pair of shoes or boots – are far from sufficient. If we had excavated further, we may have been able to find some personal effects of the- soldier “said Alain Jacques regretfully. A plaque, or an identity disc, a button, a uniform, pieces of material…….But there, knowing that it is not uncommon to find German soldiers buried wearing- French Poilu shoes, and vice versa, it is difficult to say. Taking into account the site, it could easily be a French soldier from the Battles of Artois of 1914-1918, of a British soldier from the Battle of Arras of April 1917 .Indeed even a German. We are very close to the front line, in the full battle site.

The Arras archeologist is even more bitter that he is not able to intervene systematically on the this site and that each dig is for him the opportunity to learn more about how events happened during the Great War. Like burial practices. « This type of discovery can teach us about how they took care or not at that time of enemy remains.

another part of the translation

mags

[Seadog]

Thanks Mags your translations are appreciated; I wonder just what is happening here take for instance this quote from the above:

"If we had excavated further, we may have been able to find some personal effects of the- soldier “said Alain Jacques regretfully. A plaque, or an identity disc, a button, a uniform, pieces of material"

So why was the archeologist unable to excavate further ground conditions, depth or some other reason?

Norman

[margaretdufay]

In the Arras area, epicenter of a horrendeous deadly conflict during the Great War, it is not an unusual thing to dig up some weapon remains or shells, but also from time to time to dig up a bone. Even several. In short, to unearth the remains of soldiers, whether they be British, Canadian, French or German, who died in the battlefield nearly a hundred years ago. But when this discovery is made in your garden, where you thought you would grow your vegetable patch or build a swimming pool.

Bones were found at Nono’s. “With a hint of mockery, his neighbours and friends have since been calling him Dupont de Ligonnes. But Arnaud, whose family members are, rest assured, in good health, is nothing of a serial killer. And these are fragments of a skeleton of a soldier of the 1914-1918 war that the workers of the landscaping company, who were digging over his garden, that were unearthed in his garden three weeks ago in Neuville Vitasse. Even if at first, when picking up the large thigh bone belonged to an animal that had been lying there for ages in the Neuville pastures before they became the target of land developers. Yes, but how could they explain that the cow had been armed? For next to the remains,a barrel of a rifle was also discovered. Like the pieces of soles, and even if they had been made of cow leather, it was highly unlikely that they were attached to clogs by cows.

We are joking, but when the entrepreneur called Arnaud, who was working, to warn him that à body had been unearthed in his garden, our man was taken by surprise. What should he do? He called the town hall, which then called the gendarmes from the Vis en Artois Brigade. That was the best thing to do. And it is the Police Force who must decide on the facts and to lead the investigations destined to exclude or not the theses of a homicide. Once the criminal track has been put aside, they have to see if any artifacts are present, and any manmade object, surrounging the body, and to protect the whole site. The time to inform the necessary services. The archeologists of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission of Beaurains, who are authorized since 1951, under the terms of an agreement signed by France, to be responsible for the remains of the soldiers of the first and second World Wars. That is why an exhumation Officer from the CWGC went to see Arnaud.

But who was this soldier exhumed from the bowels of the earth of Neuville-Vitasse.

Difficult to say, it would have been necessary for either the Exhumation Officer of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, or the Arras archeologist Alain Jacques or one of his colleagues, to proceed with further digging to discover this. The only clues today in their possession – a rusty oxydised piece of a barrel of a rifle and the remains of soles of a pair of shoes or boots – are far from sufficient. If we had excavated further, we may have been able to find some personal effects of the- soldier “said Alain Jacques regretfully. A plaque, or an identity disc, a button, a uniform, pieces of material…….But there, knowing that it is not uncommon to find German soldiers buried wearing- French Poilu shoes, and vice versa, it is difficult to say. Taking into account the site, it could easily be a French soldier from the Battles of Artois of 1914-1918, of a British soldier from the Battle of Arras of April 1917 .Indeed even a German. We are very close to the front line, in the full battle site.

The Arras archeologist is even more bitter that he is not able to intervene systematically on the this site and that each dig is for him the opportunity to learn more about how events happened during the Great War. Like burial practices. « This type of discovery can teach us about how they took care or not at that time of enemy remains.

Unknown for ever more ?

We shall undoubtedly never know the identity this soldier. That is likely to upset Nelly, who works at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission in Beaurains and who intervenes all year long in this type of discovery.”Without holding up the work for very long, by a methodical search, we can very often find the personal possessions of the solder which will help us to identify him. And then to go back in history and retrace his story. And if necessary to inform his descendants. “Which, if it is a British fighter, is not trivial, given the huge interest that British families (and across the Atlantic if it is a Canadian) have in the memory of their forefathers, who came here nearly a hundred years ago to reestablish peace in Europe. On 20, 21 and 22 of last August, in the Nord – Pas de Calais and Picardy a dozen British soldiers, certain of whom had been identified, were buried with full military honours, in the presence of representatives of the embassies of their country of origin , and sometimes even of their families. Currently we have about sixty sets of remains awaiting burial. Ceremonies like that are extremely moving and I invite anyone to come and attend (please come dressed appropriately for the occasion), there will be many commemorations of the centenary of the Great War during 2014 and 2018 precises Nelly

here is the article in full

mags

[Seadog]

Thanks again Mags, something has happened here by the tone of the statements from those quoted above;

"The Arras archeologist is even more bitter that he is not able to intervene systematically on the this site and that each dig is for him the opportunity to learn more about how events happened during the Great War. Like burial practices. « This type of discovery can teach us about how they took care or not at that time of enemy remains".

It also sounds like the lady (Nelly who has helped me in the past) from the CWGC in Arras raises concerns over the circumstances which have pertained here and her response is well worth reading. It seems therefore that a somewhat unhappy situation has been encountered here and if proper further investigation by the professionals has been stopped for reasons that are not apparent as yet then that would indeed be most unfortunate indeed. My reading of the story could of course be incorrect.

Norman

[egbert]

If the poor soul cannot be identified by nationality at all- where will he be re interred? A CWGC-, German-, French-, or whatever cemetery?

May I please bumb that question up? Anybody knows the answer?