Age Old Question ? A Soldier Missing- How , Where, Why?

[rodhughes]

HI Forum Experts

My Gt Uncle :- Lcpl David Hughes. G/42040. 13th Bn Middlesex Rgt. is recorded as missing date 04/03 /1917 ?

Kew records Burnt So..........
Were can I find the identity of How, Where or Why he fell ???
There is no evidence at all in the Rgt War Diary not even to him missing ?
Was he even with his Rgt at the time?
Regardezvooz

[garfyboy]

Your great uncle was KIA according to sdgw, the 13th m/sex were part of 73rd brigade, 24th division, im sure others will help to let you know what action he was involved in.

As for him being on a memorial and not beneath a headstone means either he wasnt found - lost in the mud/ blown to bits, poss buried and then the grave lost in further fighting or maybe he was found but not identified so he would be under "a soldier of the great war" headstone

[John_Hartley]

Although casualties are usually recorded in the war diary, it isnt always the case. You'd need to consider what it says was actually happening at the time. Assuming they were undertaking a tour of duty in the front line area, I'd consider all the days of that tour, as dates are not always accurate to the event.

As for him not being with his battalion at the time, you'd need to look back in the diary for some while to see if any men were attached to another unit temporarily.

[centurion]

KIA does not necessarily mean that any particular action was involved. Even when a unit was just holding a section of the line there was always a slow but persistent rate of attrition from things like artillery, trench mortars and snipers. As has been said not all got put in the unit's diaries (sometime you may see entries like two men killed by enemy minenwerfer round but no names). A man so killed might well be properly buried in a marked grave and the location recorded somewhere. However if over time the area was fought over and shelled more than once all markings might well have been lost (and even the grave and the body blown to fragments) so that when, afterwards, the buried were re interred in war cemeteries his grave could not be located and identified as his

[KevinBattle]

He was the only casualty that day. The War Diary therefore may just note what happened, but maybe not.

There seems to be a persistent issue over where he was born.

Attempts have been made to change from Handovery, Ireland (?) to Llandovery, Wales (which makes more logical sense) BUT enlistment location is shown in SDGW as Waterford, Ireland AND he's recorded in Ireland Casualties of WW1 and therefore if it's incorrect, it's been so from when those records were created.

His Medal Index Card shows no other service, and that he wasn't Overseas until after 1915, entitled to British War and Victory medals.

Waterford and Middlesex Reg't don't fit neatly for a pure bred Welsh boyo, there must be a better explanation for these discrepancies other than transcription errors.

His details seem to match a David T(J?) Hughes, aged 18 in 1911 Census, son of David and Rachel Hughes at Cwrtbychan (Covert?) Margam, Port Talbot.

Elder brothers John and Daniel and sister Beat(t?)ie. They could speak both Welsh and English.

Parents married 33 years with 11 children, 5 only surviving in 1911.

In 1901 the address is presumably the same but rendered as Court (Covert?) Bychan (similarly spelt on the reverse of 1911 Census Form) close by Old Park Farm where another daughter Margaret looks to be a domestic servant to the Farm Bailiff. 9 year old Kate seems to have disappeared by 1911.

David is aged 8 (but looks as if written as 18) and born at Llandigad(?)

Working as agricultural labourers rather than miners in 1911.

In 1891 they are in Llandovery, but that's before David's birth....

Does any of that help?

[centurion]

There was a Court Bychan at Margam Glamorganshire which had at least 4 dwellings for agricultural workers (I've found a shepherd living in one).

[centurion]

Apparently Cwrt is Welsh for Court (or Court is English for Cwrt)

[rodhughes]

Hi Guys, Spot on!
But I Have to ask for more help here.

The fact is Kevin has revealed some of the stumbling blocks I have had to battle!!!
My Grandfather John Hughes and his younger brother David Thomas (Tom) Hughes were born in Carmarthen, WALES, Registrered in Llandovery - Llandigat is just ouside Llandovery. Fact.
{ Handovery in Ireland is very misleading mistake.... forget it!!!!}
His mother -My Gt Grandmother Rachel lived in a tyed cottage in (Margam Castle) Margam called Cwrt Y Bychen, - Fact

Both My Gfather and David were Farm workers ( in fact all the family) worked for the Mansel /Talbots of Margam Castle.- its not to far removed to see that he could be a strong lad used to horses etc a good find?

The Question still remains and I suppose I shall just have to accept that sadly I wont get to the bottom of it?

But Please accept my Great thanks.

[Stebie9173]

I can't narrow it down further but the 7th Northamptons of the same Brigade went into the trenches at Ablain St Nazaire on the evening of the 4th March 1917 having marched from Haillicourt that afternoon. The sector (I have more commonly seen the area referred to as Souchez in war diaries) lies between the Loos and Vimy / Arras battlefields.

It sounds like a casualty during relief when battalions were very vulnerable to sudden bombardment or stray shots. I don't know whether the Middlesex were being relieved or were going into trenches.

Steve.

[rodhughes]

I can't narrow it down further but the 7th Northamptons of the same Brigade went into the trenches at Ablain St Nazaire on the evening of the 4th March 1917 having marched from Haillicourt that afternoon. The sector (I have more commonly seen the area referred to as Souchez in war diaries) lies between the Loos and Vimy / Arras battlefields.

It sounds like a casualty during relief when battalions were very vulnerable to sudden bombardment or stray shots. I don't know whether the Middlesex were being relieved or were going into trenches.

Steve.

Thank you Steve there is some mileage in this idea!!!

Rod

There was a Court Bychan at Margam Glamorganshire which had at least 4 dwellings for agricultural workers (I've found a shepherd living in one).

You Are Correct!

[rodhughes]

He was the only casualty that day. The War Diary therefore may just note what happened, but maybe not.

There seems to be a persistent issue over where he was born.

Attempts have been made to change from Handovery, Ireland (?) to Llandovery, Wales (which makes more logical sense) BUT enlistment location is shown in SDGW as Waterford, Ireland AND he's recorded in Ireland Casualties of WW1 and therefore if it's incorrect, it's been so from when those records were created.

His Medal Index Card shows no other service, and that he wasn't Overseas until after 1915, entitled to British War and Victory medals.

Waterford and Middlesex Reg't don't fit neatly for a pure bred Welsh boyo, there must be a better explanation for these discrepancies other than transcription errors.

His details seem to match a David T(J?) Hughes, aged 18 in 1911 Census, son of David and Rachel Hughes at Cwrtbychan (Covert?) Margam, Port Talbot.

Elder brothers John and Daniel and sister Beat(t?)ie. They could speak both Welsh and English.

Parents married 33 years with 11 children, 5 only surviving in 1911.

In 1901 the address is presumably the same but rendered as Court (Covert?) Bychan (similarly spelt on the reverse of 1911 Census Form) close by Old Park Farm where another daughter Margaret looks to be a domestic servant to the Farm Bailiff. 9 year old Kate seems to have disappeared by 1911.

David is aged 8 (but looks as if written as 18) and born at Llandigad(?)

Working as agricultural labourers rather than miners in 1911.

In 1891 they are in Llandovery, but that's before David's birth....

Does any of that help?

He was the only casualty that day. The War Diary therefore may just note what happened, but maybe not.

There seems to be a persistent issue over where he was born.

Attempts have been made to change from Handovery, Ireland (?) to Llandovery, Wales (which makes more logical sense) BUT enlistment location is shown in SDGW as Waterford, Ireland AND he's recorded in Ireland Casualties of WW1 and therefore if it's incorrect, it's been so from when those records were created.

His Medal Index Card shows no other service, and that he wasn't Overseas until after 1915, entitled to British War and Victory medals.

Waterford and Middlesex Reg't don't fit neatly for a pure bred Welsh boyo, there must be a better explanation for these discrepancies other than transcription errors.

His details seem to match a David T(J?) Hughes, aged 18 in 1911 Census, son of David and Rachel Hughes at Cwrtbychan (Covert?) Margam, Port Talbot.

Elder brothers John and Daniel and sister Beat(t?)ie. They could speak both Welsh and English.

Parents married 33 years with 11 children, 5 only surviving in 1911.

In 1901 the address is presumably the same but rendered as Court (Covert?) Bychan (similarly spelt on the reverse of 1911 Census Form) close by Old Park Farm where another daughter Margaret looks to be a domestic servant to the Farm Bailiff. 9 year old Kate seems to have disappeared by 1911.

David is aged 8 (but looks as if written as 18) and born at Llandigad(?)

Working as agricultural labourers rather than miners in 1911.

In 1891 they are in Llandovery, but that's before David's birth....

Does any of that help?

Thank you Kevin you have a handle on the family history bit!! Trust me the Handovery bit is a major mistake.

Rod

[rodhughes]

By the way could someone please help talk me through posting a picture of my Gt Uncle David Hughes.
I have so far failed???
Rod

[Stebie9173]

Firstly the picture needs to be under 250kb in size. You may need to make a copy and resize the copy (retaining the original of course!)

Then click on More Reply Options in the bottom right corner.

Below the text panel you should see "Attach Files". Click on Choose File and navigate to the file and select it. Then click attach file (below Choose File).

If you wish you can then position the attached file by clicking on the add into to post button which should appear once the file is attached. If you don't use the last stage, the photo will still attach but will be added to the bottom of the post.

Steve.

[KevinBattle]

Hi, I can see that Llandovery could be misread for Handovery, as there seems to be no such place, anywhere, let alone Ireland.

You then have the enlistment location showing as Waterford, which IS in Ireland and doesn't seem to have any possible Welsh misspelling.

Finally someone put him into the Ireland WW1 Casualty Register.

Unless the compiler simply went by enlistment information (or had access to more information than currently available) those stumbling blocks become nightmares for you.

From what I can tell, there is absolutely nothing to connect him to Ireland in any way.

Nor would there be for a Middlesex connection either, except that he may have been conscripted and had no choice into which unit he served.

He may well have had some English, but I'd expect his first language to be Welsh.

Working for the Mansel and Talbot families may have required some knowledge of English, but not perhaps to "keep his head down" when needed...

I don't have the skills to tell from his Service Number as to when he could have reached France, but my suspicion would be under 6 months, possibly only very shortly before his death.

There is a very slight chance that this chap could also have been involved in the same incident, but probably some days later as in 6 days I would have expected a casualty to be further down the evacuation chain... it is possibly just another "attritional" losses of simply being hit by a stray shell or bullet or some other whimsy of fate.

WALTON, RAYMOND CYRIL. Rank: Private. Service No: G/4710. Date of Death: 10/03/1917. Age: 23.

Regiment/Service: Middlesex Regiment. 13th Bn.

Grave Reference: II. D. 4. Cemetery: BOIS-DE-NOULETTE BRITISH CEMETERY, AIX-NOULETTE

Additional Information: Son of Annie T. Cartwright (formerly Walton), of 155, Calais Rd., Burton-on-Trent, and the late Ernest Walton. Native of Leicester.

Aix-Noulette is a large village 8 kilometres south-south-east of Bethune on the main road to Arras. About 1.5 kilometres south of the village and a little west of the main road is the hamlet of Noulette. Bois-de-Noulette British Cemetery is on the south side of the hamlet.

Historical Information: This cemetery was made by Field Ambulances between April 1916, and May 1917, and was at first Bois-de-Noulette New Cemetery, to distinguish it from the many small French military cemeteries in or near the wood.

It may give you a slightly better idea as to where they were at that time.

[rodhughes]

Hi, I can see that Llandovery could be misread for Handovery, as there seems to be no such place, anywhere, let alone Ireland.

You then have the enlistment location showing as Waterford, which IS in Ireland and doesn't seem to have any possible Welsh misspelling.

Finally someone put him into the Ireland WW1 Casualty Register.

Unless the compiler simply went by enlistment information (or had access to more information than currently available) those stumbling blocks become nightmares for you.

From what I can tell, there is absolutely nothing to connect him to Ireland in any way.

Nor would there be for a Middlesex connection either, except that he may have been conscripted and had no choice into which unit he served.

He may well have had some English, but I'd expect his first language to be Welsh.

Working for the Mansel and Talbot families may have required some knowledge of English, but not perhaps to "keep his head down" when needed...

I don't have the skills to tell from his Service Number as to when he could have reached France, but my suspicion would be under 6 months, possibly only very shortly before his death.

There is a very slight chance that this chap could also have been involved in the same incident, but probably some days later as in 6 days I would have expected a casualty to be further down the evacuation chain... it is possibly just another "attritional" losses of simply being hit by a stray shell or bullet or some other whimsy of fate.

WALTON, RAYMOND CYRIL. Rank: Private. Service No: G/4710. Date of Death: 10/03/1917. Age: 23.

Regiment/Service: Middlesex Regiment. 13th Bn.

Grave Reference: II. D. 4. Cemetery: BOIS-DE-NOULETTE BRITISH CEMETERY, AIX-NOULETTE

Additional Information: Son of Annie T. Cartwright (formerly Walton), of 155, Calais Rd., Burton-on-Trent, and the late Ernest Walton. Native of Leicester.

Aix-Noulette is a large village 8 kilometres south-south-east of Bethune on the main road to Arras. About 1.5 kilometres south of the village and a little west of the main road is the hamlet of Noulette. Bois-de-Noulette British Cemetery is on the south side of the hamlet.

Historical Information: This cemetery was made by Field Ambulances between April 1916, and May 1917, and was at first Bois-de-Noulette New Cemetery, to distinguish it from the many small French military cemeteries in or near the wood.

It may give you a slightly better idea as to where they were at that time.

Hi, I can see that Llandovery could be misread for Handovery, as there seems to be no such place, anywhere, let alone Ireland.

You then have the enlistment location showing as Waterford, which IS in Ireland and doesn't seem to have any possible Welsh misspelling.

Finally someone put him into the Ireland WW1 Casualty Register.

Unless the compiler simply went by enlistment information (or had access to more information than currently available) those stumbling blocks become nightmares for you.

From what I can tell, there is absolutely nothing to connect him to Ireland in any way.

Nor would there be for a Middlesex connection either, except that he may have been conscripted and had no choice into which unit he served.

He may well have had some English, but I'd expect his first language to be Welsh.

Working for the Mansel and Talbot families may have required some knowledge of English, but not perhaps to "keep his head down" when needed...

I don't have the skills to tell from his Service Number as to when he could have reached France, but my suspicion would be under 6 months, possibly only very shortly before his death.

There is a very slight chance that this chap could also have been involved in the same incident, but probably some days later as in 6 days I would have expected a casualty to be further down the evacuation chain... it is possibly just another "attritional" losses of simply being hit by a stray shell or bullet or some other whimsy of fate.

WALTON, RAYMOND CYRIL. Rank: Private. Service No: G/4710. Date of Death: 10/03/1917. Age: 23.

Regiment/Service: Middlesex Regiment. 13th Bn.

Grave Reference: II. D. 4. Cemetery: BOIS-DE-NOULETTE BRITISH CEMETERY, AIX-NOULETTE

Additional Information: Son of Annie T. Cartwright (formerly Walton), of 155, Calais Rd., Burton-on-Trent, and the late Ernest Walton. Native of Leicester.

Aix-Noulette is a large village 8 kilometres south-south-east of Bethune on the main road to Arras. About 1.5 kilometres south of the village and a little west of the main road is the hamlet of Noulette. Bois-de-Noulette British Cemetery is on the south side of the hamlet.

Historical Information: This cemetery was made by Field Ambulances between April 1916, and May 1917, and was at first Bois-de-Noulette New Cemetery, to distinguish it from the many small French military cemeteries in or near the wood.

It may give you a slightly better idea as to where they were at that time.

Hi & Thank you Kevin

Your grasp of the problems involved in discovering answers to 100 year old questions is -Remarkable .

I am indebted to all who contribute to our understanding of the problems of the legacy of WW1.

Thank You

Rod