HMS Argus

[Adrian Roberts]

I mainly post in the War in the Air section, but when it comes to model-making, ships are my principal subject.

I am currently attempting to model HMS Argus, in her 1918 guise. This will present several challenges, not least the zebra camouflage, but that is part of the fun.

I have many good photos, but one thing that I may have to guess at is the construction and colour of the flight deck. I am assuming this was of wood: it wasn't until the Illustrious class carriers of WW2 that armoured steel decks became the norm.

Can anyone confirm that Argus's deck was planked in wood; if so was it varnished like any other wooden deck, or was it painted a particular colour? David Brown's The Grand Fleet says that the hangar deck was of "steel non-skid strips rather than planking which might have become soaked in oil and petrol". But of course the hangar deck was internal so not portrayable on a model, and he doesn't mention the flight deck.

Adrian

[TeeCeeCee]

I mainly post in the War in the Air section, but when it comes to model-making, ships are my principal subject.

I am currently attempting to model HMS Argus, in her 1918 guise. This will present several challenges, not least the zebra camouflage, but that is part of the fun.

I have many good photos, but one thing that I may have to guess at is the construction and colour of the flight deck. I am assuming this was of wood: it wasn't until the Illustrious class carriers of WW2 that armoured steel decks became the norm.

Can anyone confirm that Argus's deck was planked in wood; if so was it varnished like any other wooden deck, or was it painted a particular colour? David Brown's The Grand Fleet says that the hangar deck was of "steel non-skid strips rather than planking which might have become soaked in oil and petrol". But of course the hangar deck was internal so not portrayable on a model, and he doesn't mention the flight deck.

Adrian

Did you look for images on google? I found a page that shows images captioned as Argus 'in 1922' and it as a planked deck.

http://www.ivyandmartin.demon.co.uk/v_f2b.htm

Is it Argus?

And there's an image on this page:

http://seditionsgraphiques.tumblr.com/page/7

Unless you find other info to the contrary, I'd go with untreated teak planking... untreated meaning no paint nor varnish.

[Gibbo]

There's a colour photo of the Fleet Air Arm Museum's model of HMS Argus on this website.

The aircraft models and the zebra camouflage suggest that it's in the 1918 guise.

[Adrian Roberts]

Thanks, Gibbo and TeeCeeCee, I've bookmarked all of these.

I'm pretty sure the photos with the Bristols are of Argus.The large well for the hangar lift is certainly familiar.

In the Camel photo, the long lines we can see are the longitudinal arrester wires that was grabbed by claws on the undercarriage.

The FAAM model tells me that some of the camouflage was blue not black and white; the black and white photos that I have do not make this clear.

[TeeCeeCee]

Thanks, Gibbo and TeeCeeCee, I've bookmarked all of these.

I'm pretty sure the photos with the Bristols are of Argus.The large well for the hangar lift is certainly familiar.

In the Camel photo, the long lines we can see are the longitudinal arrester wires that was grabbed by claws on the undercarriage.

The FAAM model tells me that some of the camouflage was blue not black and white; the black and white photos that I have do not make this clear.

Aye, but not all are wires. I left it to you to work out which are the wires, their shadows, the lift edge and if any are plank joints.

[Adrian Roberts]

Aye, but not all are wires. I left it to you to work out which are the wires, their shadows, the lift edge and if any are plank joints.

I can probably cop out of that, as at the scale I am working at, I am not going to be able to reproduce plank lines, and it is dubious if I can show the arrester wires.

[michaeldr]

Can anyone confirm that Argus's deck was planked in wood;

If you're prepared to take Wiki's word for it

The first aircraft carrier that began to show the configuration of the modern vessel was the converted liner HMS Argus, which had a large flat wooden deck added over the entire length of the hull,

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_deck

otherwise, the following reading comes recommended

Friedman – British Carrier Aviation

Layman – Before the Aircraft Carrier

McBride – 'The Hatbox': HMS Argus from Warship 1994, Conway Maritime Press

Good luck

Michael

[healdav]

I would not have thought that the planks would have been simply varnished - far too slippery.

Probably it was some sort of paint or varnish with an admixture of sand. I vaguely remember that this was the case with the USS Forrestal in the 1950s. I was only on her once, and was surprised to see that the deck was wooden but definitely with some non-skid surface.

[Adrian Roberts]

Thanks, Michael and Healdav. Varnishing a model at 1/500 scale would be overscale anyway - even if it was varnished, you wouldn't see that on the real thing if you looked from the scale distance from which you would examine a model. And the suggestion of a non-slip wooden surface maybe accounts for the rather strange shade of brown on the FAAM model.

[horatio2]

... And the suggestion of a non-slip wooden surface maybe accounts for the rather strange shade of brown on the FAAM model.

The flight deck on the model is actually light grey

[centurion]

There is a photo of a Parnel Panther on HMS Argus on page 19 of Thetfords British Naval Aircraft - planked decking is very obvious. It is dated 1919/20. The decking would very likely have been varnished to protect it from the effects of salt water. There are photos in the same book of Nieuport Nightjar fleet fighters on Argus in 1922. The flight deck has been covered with a very large area of matting

[horatio2]

Teak decking was never varnished. If it was teak (most likely).

[centurion]

Engineering March 28th 1919 has a detailed description of Argus which ought to contain most if not all the answers - finding a copy is the problem but a good large library might be able to help. Apparently the mats in the photo I mentioned were a "safety mattress" for landings and may account for the deck colour of the model mentioned. They appear unique to Argus. Argus also appears to have had her deck replaced between the wars. There was concern during her conversion from a liner that her flight deck might make her top heavy whether this was so and if it had any influence on the materials used I cannot say - again Engineering would seem your best bet.

[Sepoy]

The last entries in a Flying Log kept by Lieutenant L C P Band record his attempts to land Parnel Panthers on HMS Argos. Unfortunately, he pranged two, hitting the Argus's funnel on one of the occasions. Strangely the Log finished at that point.......

Sepoy

[centurion]

The last entries in a Flying Log kept by Lieutenant L C P Band record his attempts to land Parnel Panthers on HMS Argos. Unfortunately, he pranged two, hitting the Argus's funnel on one of the occasions. Strangely the Log finished at that point.......

Sepoy

Argus didn't have a funnel so he must have been particularly inept

[Sepoy]

Argus didn't have a funnel so he must have been particularly inept

May be he knocked it off

I will add a scan of the entries tomorrow.....

Sepoy

[Adrian Roberts]

That will be interesting as Argus's exhaust smoke exited under the stern of the flight deck. We'll see what the diary says, but one account says that having built the vessel with a flat deck, they then experimented with dummy superstructures to test the effect of turbulence etc

The position of the smoke ducts caused all sorts of problems with overheating and with heat turbulence and smoke affecting landing. Photos of Argus at different stages of her 28-year career show a range of different duct exit configurations, sometimes fan-assisted, as they tried to get it right. The Imperial Japanese Navy Kaga and Akagi also show a range of similar configurations.

[centurion]

Accounts I have seen suggest it was the experiments that came before the final decision to have an uninterrupted flight deck and provided evidence for this decision. Even the bridge/chart room was retractable and by the time the Panther was in service there was nothing for the pilot to collide with except possibly aircraft that had already landed but not gone down in the lift to the hanger. Panthers did experience some undercarriage damage running into the flightdeck pit installed as an arrestor device but this cannot be accurately described as a collision as they were supposed to run into the pit.

[Sepoy]

May be he knocked it off

I will add a scan of the entries tomorrow.....

Sepoy

Needless to say, I have filed the RFC/RAF Log Book somewhere safe. I will post the entries as soon as I find it. Found other items that I had completely forgotten about though......

Sepoy

[centurion]

Panthers on Argus (1924) were benighted by accidents during training, most landings incurring damage but this was almost always undercarriage related as there was simply nothing to collide with. Are you sure that there isn't a confusion with Hermes (the only other carrier to have a flight of Panthers)? As the RAF pilots involved who had not joined the RAF after its formation were almost all (if not all) ex RNAS types I am puzzled about reference to an RFC/RAF log book.

[centurion]

A collision with a funnel was a distinct possibility with both Argus and Hermes as originally designed as both would have had a funnel on either side of the flight deck with aircraft landing in between (The funnels would also support an arrestor net between them) But not as built as tests with mock up structures (mentioned in earlier posts) showed that these would have caused vortexes that could have caused the aircraft to lose control. Consequently when completed Argus had a bare top whilst Hermes pioneered the now classic offset island structure.

[Sepoy]

Panthers on Argus (1924) were benighted by accidents during training, most landings incurring damage but this was almost always undercarriage related as there was simply nothing to collide with. Are you sure that there isn't a confusion with Hermes (the only other carrier to have a flight of Panthers)? As the RAF pilots involved who had not joined the RAF after its formation were almost all (if not all) ex RNAS types I am puzzled about reference to an RFC/RAF log book.

Centurion

The Officer concerned, Lawrence Claud Pharoah-Band, gained his commission in the RFC during February, 1918. After completing his training, he crossed to France in July, 1918 and joined 40 Squadron RAF as a SE5a fighter pilot. According to my notes his Flying log lists a number of minor "prangs", and shows his involvement on 8th August, 1918 in a general engagement with Fokker Tri-planes; Fokker Bi-planes and Phaltz Scouts west of Douai. He received a bullet wound to an arm whilst flying on 18th September, 1918.

I can find no official confirmation as to his Naval Flying career, beyond his entries in his flying log where he recorded his experiences flying Panthers on HMS Argus. Unfortunately, I did not record the date in my notes. I also have a photograph of him standing on the float of a Short 184 Seaplane.

The London Gazette states that he was placed on the unemployed list on 16th February, 1919 with "Flight" Magazine showing that he finally resigned his short service commission on 25th January, 1922. He was on Argus at some point between these dates (1920 rings vague bells). He returned to the RAF for World War Two.

Annoyingly, I had started to scan his paperwork during March, but decided to photograph his Flying Log rather than place it under the scanner lid. I was then taken ill and failed to complete the task. All I can remember was that I placed his Flying Log somewhere safe........

I will post further details as soon as I find it.

Sepoy

[centurion]

Landing trials of the Panther on Argus appear to date from 1921.

[michaeldr]

Have a look at picture No.17 here

http://momentdinspiration.blogspot.co.il/2011/07/largus-le-premier-porte-avions.html

to see what the Argus looked like when making smoke from her horizontal funnels

[Adrian Roberts]

Michael

Thanks, I've saved this page which includes some photos that I had not seem before.

Clearly someone else has produced a model, much nicer than I am likely to manage. But just to muddy the waters, they've painted the flightdeck Grey.

Adrian