Sidney Harold Cope F 34295 (RNAS) & 234295 (RAF)

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Hello folks,

I'm researching my Great Uncle 'Sidney Harold Cope' who's service began in 1917 with the RNAS.

Sidney was an Air Mechanic and his service began at President II before being deployed to Dunkirk.

His service number was F34295 before the amalgamation of the RNAS and the RFC to create the RAF, where his number thus became 234295.

I was wondering if anyone had come across anything to do with Sidney? He was from Wolverhampton and was born in 1898 where he learned his trade as a fitter.

Any information would be very much appreciated.

[Airshipped]

Welcome Lee,

Unfortunately I can't work out the detail from the scan but it's appear that his initial training was at Crystal Palace, after which he was posted to Cranwell before being assigned to the notional establishment of Daedalus. However, his service at Dunkirk, if I'm reading this correctly, was from December 1917 but was at one stage based at Dunkirk Aircraft Depot and then a Scotia (?illegible) Aircraft Depot. Several of the experts here on the RNAS wings should be in a position to match those sequence of dates on your scan with any significant reorganisation of squadrons or groundcrew during the period in question, i.e. it need not be the movement of a particular squadron - there could've been wider restructuring at play during the period in question.

Alas the likelihood is that you'll need to have a visitor to Kew to have a look for the following file:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C12465607

There has been much chatter on the Internet that FindMyPast will not only digitize these records but will also include full text transcriptions to make all the content electronically searchable. (I can't see how they'll manage that, as there are too many abbreviations. However, it'll be a vast improvement on the very limited metadata and tags that are used by the National Archives for its ADM 188/196/273/337and AIR 76 files). Until this happens it's necessary for the 'other ranks' of the RAF to be viewed the old-fashioned way.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Many thanks for the warm welcome, and many thanks for taking the time to look at this document. I've sat myself down with a brew and recreated my very own version of Sidney's document in my own handwriting. But I, like you have come to the same conclusion and found the http://discovery.nat...s?uri=C12465607 document on Air 79. I've requested the documents to be printed and posted to me, but they said my request was too vague, I've tried to be more specific and I shall await a reply from the National Archives... A little frustrating as I thought I made it pretty clear what I was looking for.

[David_Underdown]

Lee,

The AIR 79 records are in the process of being digitised - you'll probably find it considerably cheaper to wait a little while until they are available.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Well that's great news about the AIR 79 records! I very much look forward to finding out about Sidney's RAF service.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Now that I'm contently awaiting the day when the AIR 79 files are made public, I just thought it couldn't hurt to try and enlarge part of Sidney H Cope's RNAS service record and see if anyone could possibly decipher some more of the words that I cannot. Any comments at figuring the following document would be very much appreciated.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

So far I can read:

Dunkirk 5 Dec 17 Regt

Dunkirk 5/12/17 S1117 Pres II NP 1055b/7 ?

Shafts Farm ? Dunkirk 7 Dec 17 ? ?/26 Pres II

Arial Depot Dunkirk 19/1/18 ? Pres II

R ? ? '?' Section 19 Jan 18 ? 172/41 Pres II

? Scotia ? Depot 21 - 2 - 18 DL 172/79 Pres II DL 172/81 Pres II

Dover - Dunkirk 1 Feb 18 DL 172/85 Pres II ? 172/99 Pres II

?????????????? ??????????????????? Pres II

Returned 9/3/18 S 1118 Pres II NP 2861/18 ? R.A.F

I understand that some of the numbers are dates served in certain postings, but does anyone have any idea what all the other numbers mean please folks? They seem to be references for something.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Hello folks,

I've recently received a reply from the National Archives, and i would just like to put the reply in-front of you all for a second opinion. It would also be nice to know that I've requested the correct documents, just so my hard earned cash is spent upon the correct items.

[Sepoy]

Personally, I think that is extremely expensive, as the RAF Service Papers usually consist of a large double sided sheet.

Did you simply order AIR 79/2108/234295 which is the reference for your relative? It may be a case that the National Archives have quoted you for the entire file including your relative's papers.

It may be worth placing a request on this Forum and ask if any Forum Members visiting the NA could copy/photograph the documents for you. It is not like a WW1 Officers' service file which can include hundreds of pages.

Unfortunately, I am currently housebound following a recurring illness otherwise I would have photographed them for you. I used to be a regular NA visitor.

Sepoy

[LCpl Lee Cope]

I tend to agree that the price is very expensive for what I'm after. I've sent off multiple requests for the single document for Sidney, but I keep getting the message that my request is too vague. I'll give it one more try and see what happens. Other than that I think The National Archives give me little choice but to order the entire file.

I'll certainly take that suggestion into account and see if anyone regularly visits the National Archives. That would be a very kind gesture.

[horatio2]

The estimate is clearly a quotation for the documents for RAF No. 234295 alone. I am not sure why you have posted a view of RAF No. 234320 ordering page.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

The estimate is clearly a quotation for the documents for RAF No. 234295 alone. I am not sure why you have posted a view of RAF No. 234320 ordering page.

I've sent off multiple requests for the single document for Sidney, but I keep getting the message that my request is too vague. I only get a positive reply if I request the entire file. I'll give it one more try and see what happens. Other than that I think The National Archives give me little choice but to order the entire file.

[horatio2]

The estimate provided is not for "the entire file" but for the specific record 234295 alone (which is but one part of the larger document AIR 79/2108 as clearly stated). So you have requested the correct item (the RAF record of RAF No. 234925), which has not been rejected as "too vague", and you have received an estimate for that document to be copied. It is up to you whether the cost is acceptable.
You have not explained the reason why you have posted the ordering page for RAF No. 234230 - a completely different man.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Oh? I was under the impression that this estimate was for RAF numbers 234230 to 234320, and all the servicemen that fall into that bracket. Therefore I believed that I was going to get all their paperwork and Sidney's would be one in the pile,.

So what you are saying is that the £26 estimate is in-fact just for Sidney's document.

I shall not lie this does seem a little steep in cost, but I do really want to go through with the order, or maybe the idea of asking for someone that's visiting the National Archive soon, would be the cheaper option.

Also just out of interest, what does 'Two units' on the estimate mean? Does it mean Two pages? Anyone know please?

[horatio2]

If you require the entire contents of AIR 79/2108, which comprises the RAF numbers 2343230 to 234320, inclusive, you order via this link:-

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res?_q=air+79%2F2108 This is the 'ordering page' which you have posted above.

If you require only RAF No. 234295 (just one of the ninety documents in AIR 79/2108, above) you order via this link:-

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C12465607

Clearly you have, correctly, used the second of these options and the estimate you have received is for Sidney Harold COPE's record.

'Two units' probably means two pages. Remember the cost is not just for copying and mailing but for document retrrieval from archive and return all of which = TIME.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

And time is ammo... Many thanks for clearing that up.

[Tina Bilbe]

The document you posted at the start of this thread is from the National Archives, presumably you are looking for another document relating to your great uncle. I think most RNAS personell passed through President II aka Crystal Palace on their way to their first posting. There is an unpublished book called "The Innocent Erk" in the archives at RAF Hendon, which I drew on when writing my book on Kingsnorth Airship Station. The Innocent Erk gives a brilliant description of ther wierdness of a navy base nestled amid the galleries designed for the Great Exhibition, learning to sling your hammock ang sleep in it, and the characters running the place.