Unknown holster

[high wood]

This leather holster came in a box of leather accoutrements belonging to a British officer. The other items are included two Sam Browne belts, a S,B. sword scabbard holder, a pommel wallet and other items that make me think that they are contemporary.

The hoster has two straps to hang it from a belt and a third strap to secure the bottom end to the owner's thigh. There is no flap on the holster and no sign of one having been fitted; so presumably the revolver could be removed quickly for a fast response.

The holster is unmarked and undated. It is quite long so it may be for a Webley.

Does anyone recognise the type of holster which I presume to be British? Is it a Great War item?

Thank you.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

High Wood,

I have a WW1 hanging/slung holster, which is usually associated with Cavalry officers. What is interesting on your's is the lower strap, which as you say, was attached to the wearer's thigh. I have not seen this type before, and it may have been a form of ' Tanker ' holster, also, the thicker more rigid leather and the stitching could be WW2, which would also tie in with the ' Tanker ' use. Alternatively, it could be used by a RAF Pilot or flight crew.

The thigh strap, was usually fitted when there was use in a confined space such in a tank interior or aeroplane cockpit.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The length of the two top straps is 14" which seems quite long to hang from a belt but leaves a lot of room for adjustment.

' Tanker ' holsters were not worn on the hip, but rather were slung to hang on the thigh above the knee, at arm's length, which probably accounts for the long hanging straps.

Regards,

LF

[Gareth Davies]

The complete lack of any strap/clip/flap to keep the pistol in place is unusual. The hanging straps and thigh strap are in keeping with WW2 tank crew (aka tankies but never ever tankers - that word is rhyming slang!) holsters.

[Greg]

Some police officers and soldiers in Ireland in the 1920s wore pistol cases strapped to their thighs in 'cowboy 'style. General Service Corps can be a euphemism for Intelligence so see if someone can look up the officer's service record and see if he served in Ireland

Greg

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The hanging straps and thigh strap are in keeping with WW2 tank crew (aka tankies but never ever tankers - that word is rhyming slang!) holsters.

Gareth,

Great photograph, and many thanks for the ' tankies ' not tankers name correction.

Regards,

LF

[Doc2]

I suspect this is a modified civilian holster. Note the additional stitching through the leather near where the trigger guard would be-- this looks like it was to modify the holster for better carriage of a different pistol (smaller) than it was designed for.

[Pete_C]

Some police officers and soldiers in Ireland in the 1920s wore pistol cases strapped to their thighs in 'cowboy 'style. General Service Corps can be a euphemism for Intelligence so see if someone can look up the officer's service record and see if he served in Ireland

Greg

I think you're on the right track Greg. Here's a photo from the funeral of Michael Collins (August 1922), showing officers of the Irish Free State Army acting as pallbearers. They each wear long open top holsters, slung low on the thigh, very similar to HW's.

If you Google images from the funeral you'll see many similar examples.

Cheers

Manxy

.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I think you're on the right track Greg. Here's a photo from the funeral of Michael Collins (August 1922), showing officers of the Irish Free State Army acting as pallbearers. They each wear long open top holsters, slung low on the thigh, very similar to HW's.

Cheers

Manxy

Very interesting photograph, which as you say, puts Greg on the right track. The officer on the left, you can see the thigh strap in place, and what appears to be a Luger in the holster ??

I would think Irish Free State Army holsters are quite rare.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Some more Irish hanging style holsters, which in some photographs they resemble the British open top holster hung on straps.

LF

2

[Greg]

Two thoughts. Firstly the surname of the officer might be' Dunne'- I can't think of any other surname ending in 'unne. This is a name which could have Irish origins. Secondly I have seen photographs of these holsters/cases showing 'British 'army and RIC auxiliary division personnel wearing them as well as IRA and Free State soldiers. Would it be worth flagging this up for Corisande?

Greg.

[snapperxv]

There was a manual for revolver shooting by a Captain Tracy published in 1918 that extolled a wild west type of snap shooting this is discussed in The Webley Service Revolver: Maze: 2012:Osprey. There is a photograph of a chap believed to be Tracy wearing a similar rig to yours. I know Osprey titles are far from the be all and end all but it may be worth a look.

[daggers]

The tailor's tag shows the name Whippell. I believe they are still in business as clerical outfitters and are more likely to offer you a cassock than a service dress uniform these days.

Edit

I meant Wippell.

D

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thank you, I will look for a copy.

Simon

Simon,

Here are the photographs snapperxv is referring to, Capt. Tracy ? is wearing a slung holster with what appears to be a thigh strap, however, it is not easy to see if it is an open topped or flap holster.

Also shown, is a flap holster with a thigh strap.

c/o The Webley Service Revolver - R. Maze.

Regards,

LF

[wulfrik-the-wanderer]

The L.G. Entries are a little confusing but he seems to have served with the R.T.R, prior to 1939.

just as an correction to this, if he served prior to 1939 he would not have served with the R.T.R. as prior to 4 April 1939 the royal tank regiment was called the royal tank corps. perhaps this might have caused some confusion?

regards,

Haydn

[super6]

. The uniform has the ribbons and rose for the 1914 Star

What is the Rose for?

The Oak leaf being mentioned in dispatch(s) I believe, I hope/don't doubt someone will put me right if I am wrong here

[Lancashire Fusilier]

What is the Rose for?

The Oak leaf being mentioned in dispatch(s) I believe, I hope/don't doubt someone will put me right if I am wrong here

When the 1914 Star medal ribbon alone was worn with a small Silver Rosette attached to the ribbon, this denoted the holder was awarded the 1914 Star along with the Clasp to that Star.

Regards,

LF

[super6]

When the 1914 Star medal ribbon alone was worn with a small Silver Rosette attached to the ribbon, this denoted the holder was awarded the 1914 Star along with the Clasp to that Star.

Regards,

LF

Thanks LF,

you probably guessed that this was coming but what is the Clasp to the Star? is this along the lines of the Oakleaf?

[Andrew Upton]

you probably guessed that this was coming but what is the Clasp to the Star? is this along the lines of the Oakleaf?

Have a look at:

http://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/1914star.htm

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thanks LF,

you probably guessed that this was coming but what is the Clasp to the Star? is this along the lines of the Oakleaf?

Here is the text of the Army Order relating to the awarding of the 1914 Star Clasp, and also a photograph of a 1914 Star Clasp from a Military Medal grouping in my Collection. The Army Order, also refers to the Silver Rosette.

The coloured highlighting on the text are because I extracted the text from one of my previous GWF postings, I did not insert the highlights.

Regards,

LF

the Army also designated the 1914 Star as having aClasp, and not a Bar.

Here is the text of the Army Order ( AO 361 ) '1914 Star ' - Grant of Clasp.

1. His Majesty the King has been graciously pleased to approve the issue of a clasp to officers, warrant officers, non-commssioned officers and men who have actually been awarded the ' 1914 Star ' under Army Order 350 of 1917, and who actually served under fire of the enemy in France and Belgium between the 5th August, 1914, and midnight 22nd/23rd November, 1914.

2. The clasp will be in bronze and will bear the inscription : ' 5th Aug. - 22nd Nov. 1914 '.

3. In undress service uniform, when ribands are worn, the grant of the clasp will be denoted by the wearing of a small silver rose in the middle of the riband.

4. Officers and soldiers who were actually present on duty within range of the enemy's mobile artillery and were on the strength of, or attached to units and formations set forth in Appendix A between the above mentioned dates, will be eligible for the award.

5. An individual who served with a formation, otherwise than named in Appendix A, will only be granted the clasp on furnishing a certificate signed by an officer, warrant officer, or non-commissioned officer not below the rank of sergeant personally cognisant that the individual served on duty within the range of the enemy's mobile artillery during the period referred to in paragraph 1.

6. Two small silver roses will be issued with the clasp to each approved individual.

7. Officers commanding units and heads of departments will forward nominal rolls of troops now serving under their command entitled to the clasp, to the Secretary, War Office ( AG10 ), 27 Pilgrim Street, EC4. The rolls should be made out in duplicate in conformity with the specimen shown in Appendix B.

8. Individuals not now serving should apply on special forms ( which can be obtained on application to any head or branch post office in a town or to any post office in the country districts ), to the officer in charge of the record office of the corps in which they last served. If possible the certificate which referred to in pagragraph 5 ( and which will be found on the form ), should be first completed and signed as directed thereon. Officers in charge of records will forward all applications through the officer commanding the unit concerned, to the Secretary, War Office ( AG10 ), 27, Pligrim Street, EC4. Applications made otherwise than on the prescribed form will be ignored.

What is the Rose for?

The Oak leaf being mentioned in dispatch(s) I believe, I hope/don't doubt someone will put me right if I am wrong here

You are correct,

Regards,

LF

[super6]

Thanks Andrew, a useful site that. I had to use it to find what L F had

Thanks again L F.

I did see some of these Clasps on an auction site a little while ago but wasn't 100% certain as to what they were for.

I did try a search on this site for "clasp" but possibly wasn't specific enough!

So you have, assuming I got this correct........

1 Military Medal

2 1914 Star with clasp for a man who had served under fire

3 British War Medal

4 Victory Medal

5 India General Service medal and Campaigne Clasp

6 Good Conduct/Long Service Medal

[Lancashire Fusilier]

So you have, assuming I got this correct........

1 Military Medal

2 1914 Star with clasp for a man who had served under fire

3 British War Medal

4 Victory Medal

5 India General Service medal and Campaigne Clasp

6 Good Conduct/Long Service Medal

Super6,

Yes, you are correct, here are my MM grouping details :-

WW1 Military Medal 6 medal Court Mounted grouping awarded to Sergeant G. Hancock of the King's Royal Rifle Corps, later of the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry and the Indian Army.

Cpl. G. Hancock's Military Medal awarded for Bravery in the Field was Gazetted on 11 February 1919.

The Military Medal

Instituted by King George V on 25th March, 1916.

The 36 mm diameter silver medal ( first type ) has on the obverse a bareheaded bust of KGV in Field Marshal's uniform facing left surrounded by the legend GEORGIUS V BRITT : OMN : REX ET IND : IMP : and on the reverse, the words " FOR BRAVERY IN THE FIELD " encircled by a wreath surmounted by the Royal Cipher and a Crown.

The medal ribbon is dark blue, 1.1/4 inches wide, with 3 white and 2 crimson stripes, each of 1/8 inch wide, down the centre.

The medal has an ornate scroll bar suspender.

Initially, recipients were not entiltled to us the letters M.M. after their name, however, Army Order No.13 of January 1918 authorised all servicemen who had received the Military Medal to use the letters M.M. after their names.

During WW1 and covering the period from August 1914 to May 1920, 115,577 Military Crosses were awarded for Services in the Field.

The Military Cross Royal Warrant required the names of the recipients to be published in the London Gazette, and from September 1917, the recipient's home town was added to the Gazette details, but this practice ceased soon after the end of WW1. Towards the end of WW1. the theatre in which the medal was gained was sometimes added to the Gazette details.

The medal rim is impressed with the name rank, unit and regimental number of the recipient.

1914 Star with Clasp

Authorised in April 1917, this bronze star bearing the date ' Aug - 1914 ' rewarded the original British Expeditionary Force ( BEF ) and their immediate reinforcements who crossed into Belgium and France in the earliest days of the war. Also sometimes known unofficially as the ' Mons Star ', it was awarded to those who served in the opening campaigns on the Western Front, including the ' Retreat to Mons ' in August 1914 and the fighting around Ypres.

The reverse of the star is plain and flat and bears the recipient's name and other details.

Approximately 378,000 stars were awarded for service between 4th August 1914 and midnight on 22nd November 1914.

The only Clasp awarded with the 1914 Star was the 5th Aug. - 22nd Nov. 1914. Clasp which was granted only to those soldiers who ' came under close fire of the enemy '.

The purpose of the Clasp, was to distinguish those who had been in action as opposed to those who served behind the lines.

The Clasp was not sanctioned until 1919, by which time many of those entitled to the Clasp had been killed, and the Bar was never claimed.

The Clasp is always stitched directly to the Star's ribbon

The British War Medal

This 36 mm diameter silver medal was the standard medal for 1914-1918 with some 6,500,000 being awarded.

The obverse shows the uncrowned effigy of King George V, and on the reverse a symbolic design of a naked warrior on horseback.

The recipients name and other details are impressed on the rim of the medal.

The British War Medal also came in bronze for award to non-combatants, with some 110,000 being awarded.

The Victory Medal

This bronze, gilt-washed medal with its rainbow-coloured ribbon was awarded to some 5,725,000 recipients who served in any of the services between 5th August 1914 and 11th November 1918. ( including those who served in the 1919 post-war intervention in the Russian Civil War ).

It was never awarded alone and was often issued with the British War Medal to those who did not qualify for either of the earlier bronze Stars.

The obverse shows a depiction of a ' Winged Victory ' and the reverse contains the inscription ' The Great War for Civilisation 1914-1919 ' within an oak wreath.

For those Victory Medals awarded by the South African Government the inscription is in both English and Afrikaans.

The recipients name and other details are impressed on the rim of the medal.

India General Service Medal ( 1908-1935 ) 2nd Issue

The obverse of this 1.42 inch diameter silver medal, 2nd Issue, shows a crowned bust of King George V in robes, and the legend " GEORGIVS V KAISAR-I-HIND, this 2nd issue started from 1911 and was designed by Richard Garbe.

The reverse has a picture of the fort at Jamrud, which commands the Khyber Pass eleven miles from Peshawur. Between the " V " formed by a branch of a oak and another of laurel is a tablet on which is the word " INDIA ".

The 1.25 inch wide ribbon is Green with a 0.6 inch wide dark blue stripe down the centre.

The medal has an ornate floral suspender.

The recipients name and other details are impressed on the rim of the medal.

The Waziristan 1921-24 Clasp

Army Order No. 177 of 1926 authorised the issue of this Clasp to all who served between 21st December, 1921 and 31st March, 1924 in North and South Waziristan, Bannu, the Dera Ismail Khan Civil Districts and the part of the Mianwali District which lies west of the River Indus, also the military posts of Mari Indus and Darya Khan east of the river Indus.

Those awarded the Clasp included servicemen from Cavalry, Artillery, Armoured Car Coys, Sappers and Miners, Infantry Regiments and the RAF.

Long Service and Good Conduct Medal ( King George V issue - 1911 - 1920 )

The Long Service & Good Conduct Medal was instituted in 1830.

The medal is made of silver and is 36 mm in diameter.

The KGV 1911-20 issue obverse depicts a bareheaded bust of KGV in Field Marshal's uniform facing left surrounded by the legend GEORGIUS V BRITT : OMN : REX ET IND : IMP :

The medal reverse bears in inscription FOR LONG SERVICE AND GOOD CONDUCT

The suspender is an ornate scroll suspender. After 1920 this suspender was changed to a non-swivelling suspender.

Prior to 1916 the medal ribbon was a plain dark crimson, and in 1917 to clearly distinguish it from the Victoria Cross ribbon, a 3 mm wide white stripe was added to each edge of the 32 mm wide ribbon.

The medal was originally awarded to infantry NCOs and men who had completed 24 years of good conduct, and in 1870, this qualifying period was reduced to 18 years for both infantry and cavalry.

The recipients name and or details are engraved or impressed around the medal rim.

Regards,

LF

[Khaki]

Hello LF,

The clasp criteria,

"Who actually served under enemy fire" how did they verify that? that definition must have had it's own definintion, as if you were working in the rear areas say a railway point and you received a long range shell, that must have qualified, or what if a plane decided to take a shot at you? Its a point that has always puzzled me.

regards

khaki

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Hello LF,

The clasp criteria,

"Who actually served under enemy fire" how did they verify that? that definition must have had it's own definintion, as if you were working in the rear areas say a railway point and you received a long range shell, that must have qualified, or what if a plane decided to take a shot at you? Its a point that has always puzzled me.

regards

khaki

khaki,

I trust you are enjoying your Labor Day long weekend.

Here are sections 1 and 4 of Army Order ( AO 361 ) '1914 Star ' - Grant of Clasp.

1. His Majesty the King has been graciously pleased to approve the issue of a clasp to officers, warrant officers, non-commssioned officers and men who have actually been awarded the ' 1914 Star ' under Army Order 350 of 1917, and who actually served under fire of the enemy in France and Belgium between the 5th August, 1914, and midnight 22nd/23rd November, 1914.

4. Officers and soldiers who were actually present on duty within range of the enemy's mobile artillery and were on the strength of, or attached to units and formations set forth in Appendix A between the above mentioned dates, will be eligible for the award.

Those 2 sections were used to specify who was eligible for the Clasp, and so we have " served under fire of the enemy in France and Belgium between 5th August, 1914 and midnight 22nd/23rd November, 1914. "

We also have " actually present on duty within range of the enemy's mobile artillery ".

So in your example of being at a railway point and getting shelled, would have qualified for the Clasp.

As far as aircraft action, would there have been any in France and Belgium between 5 August and midnight 22/23 November, 1914 ?

Regards,

LF

[Khaki]

Thanks LF,

I note that the 'clasp' was approved for issue in 1919 when a large number of men especially the O.C were out of the army. My thoughts were I understand that the award for the New Zealand medal of the New Zealand wars 1860's in the case of colonial forces was only made to men who could prove that they had been' under fire etc' this was done usually with a letter from an officer in support of their application. In 1919 or later what evidence was required to be awarded a clasp?

thanks and Happy Labor Day!

khaki