1st Bn Royal Scots Fusiliers - Oct 1914

[Guest]

Hello.... I am researching Capt (Hon) James Boyle who died serving with the 2nd Bn (correction: 1st Bn)Royal Scots Fusiliers on 18th Oct 1914 (I assume on the retreat from Mons). He is commemorated on Le Touret Memorial. He was the son of the 7th Earl of Glasgow.

I am researching James for a family member. It is non-commercial. I wonder if anyone can point me in the direction of any written material that might expand on the circumstances of his death and specifically where the 2nd Bn (correction: 1st Bn) was on that date....

Does anyone know if the 2nd Bn (correction: 1st Bn and the answer is yes) War Diary is available via TNA? I am travelling with erratic comms. I have (at home) Buchan's history of the Royal Scots Fusiliers, so I am hoping that will shed some light but from memory it was not a particularly well written history ( despite his literary credentials ).

If anyone is aware of any first-hand accounts that cover this Bn for this period, I would be extremely grateful for any pointers.

Thanks in advance. I am not being lazy, just wanting to try and accelerate the process before I return to Blighty at the weekend....

MG

[Steven Broomfield]

Anything in Gliddon's book on the Aristocracy in the Great War? If no-one else does, i can look this evening.

[Steven Broomfield]

Incidentally, the 2nd RSF were in the 7th Division, so I suspect his death was connected with operations round Antwerp: I'm afraid I have no idea where Missing from those operations are commemorated. I also have the divisional history, so can look there too.

[spof]

Martin

The diary can be downloaded from TNA under ref WO 95/1659. THey were at Ternand on the day and there is no mention of him.

Glen

[Guest]

I think the Diary is available for download Click unless it has not been returned yet from digitisation?

Mike

[Guest]

Incidentally, the 2nd RSF were in the 7th Division, so I suspect his death was connected with operations round Antwerp: I'm afraid I have no idea where Missing from those operations are commemorated. I also have the divisional history, so can look there too.

Many thanks Steven. I am in your debt. Any context from the 7th Div history would be welcome. Who was the author? I need to get a copy. Presumably there is a reprint.....

MG

[Steven Broomfield]

C T Atkinson, I think. Probably available from N&M

[Guest]

Martin

The diary can be downloaded from TNA under ref WO 95/1659. THey were at Ternand on the day and there is no mention of him.

Glen

Thanks Glen. I had assumed it was, but with erratic comms (Mauritius) I had not managed enough continuous link with TNA's website and when I typed in 2 Royal Scots Fusiliers into the advanced **ahem** search function in **ahem** Discovery catalogue it gave me a zero return which I was pretty sure was wrong.

Interesting that there was no mention of him, given he was an Officer and aristocracy to boot...then again the aristocracy were dying in numbers on at this stage of the war so perhaps it was not worthy of comment....unless maybe he was in Bde staff of course... I will order it on my return if comms dont get any better. Most War Diaries list the Officers who embarked...does the 2 RSF War Diary do this?

Thanks again.

MG

C T Atkinson, I think. Probably available from N&M

Thanks Steven. He was a very prodigious author of WWI histories...a few Yeomanry titles to his name if memory serves...

[spof]

Martin

No lists of officers. The diary starts with them leaving Lyndhurst Camp in Hampshire and heading to Southampton.

You might enjoy this too - With The Immortal Seventh Division by Edmund John Kennedy.

Glen

[Guest]

Martin

No lists of officers. The diary starts with them leaving Lyndhurst Camp in Hampshire and heading to Southampton.

You might enjoy this too - With The Immortal Seventh Division by Edmund John Kennedy.

Glen

Thanks Glen. Very useful. I have now managed to order the War Diary but cannot download it...very frustrating. I will have to wait until Saturday.

MG

[lostinspace]

Martin,

Boyle wasn't a member of the 2nd Battalion but of the 1st (9 Bde, 3 Div.). I think this on-line article will give you the information you need http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-people/memorials/114-capt-boyle.html .

Dave

[Guest]

Martin,

Boyle wasn't a member of the 2nd Battalion but of the 1st (9 Bde, 3 Div.). I think this on-line article will give you the information you need http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-people/memorials/114-capt-boyle.html .

Dave

Thank you... I was going on info provided by the family, but I should have noticed the Bn on the CWGC website. Back to square one....

MG

[Steven Broomfield]

Ho hum ... La Bassee, possibly?

I'll still check Gliddon's book tonight.

Incidentally, Atkinson did indeed write a lot of regimental and divisional histories - he and Wylly seem to have cornered the market! There was a very interesting piece on Atkinson in the Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research some years ago. IIRC he was an Oxford academic. I'll try and look it out at some point.

[lostinspace]

I wonder if anyone has access to the "Stand To!" article referenced by the Western Front Association? The description of Boyle's death is unusual, to say the least, I would guess that the information had to come from Captain Lyon (if he survived) or the Germans.

Dave

[spof]

Ho hum ... La Bassee, possibly?

Near Herlies (east of Aubers)

His case is indeed unusual.

THe diary can be downloaded from WO 95/1432.

18/10/1914

The 9^th Bde was ordered to attack HERLIES a portion of which was still held by the Germans, and the 7^th Bde were ordered on ILLIES. The objective of the RSF was the CHATEAU, S of HERLIES with the LINCOLNS in Reserve. The Chateau was enclosed in a wood about 1600 yards from our position. The ground from the N end of the wood gradually rose to the LA BASSEE ROAD. The ground over which the attack was made was a considerable clip, with a small farm at the bottom. The ground was intersected with ditches, with a small wood on our left flank. The Germans were entrenched on the near side of the CHATEAU wood, and on E and W of it. At least 2 guns and machine guns were on the E of the wood. A Coy advanced under CAPT HURT with the centre of the CHATEAU wood as his objective, with B Coy on his left in echelon under CAPT BROWNE. On the right were the 7^th Bde; the 5^th FUSILIERS were some way in rear on our left at HERLIES. R Battery RFA supported our attack and the machine gun under LT BADHAM moved between A and B Coys. The leading Coys advanced to within 500 yardsof the CHATEAU wood exposed to a heavy rifle and shell fire, when I ordered a halt as it was found the 5^th FUSILIERS were unable to advance and our left flank was therefore dangerously exposed. Whilst this advance was taking place, the Reserve C AND D Coys were heavily shelled by high explosives which caused considerable casualties. About 5.15pm orders were received to continue the advance, and C Coy under CAPT BOYLE were ordered to support A Coy. It was now getting dark. About 6pm fresh orders were received to withdraw to a position in rear. By this time the leading Coy had approached within 60 yards of the wood, but A Coy had moved to the left and C Coy was level on the right opposite the CHATEAU wood. LT LYON, acting adjutant, was dispatched with the order for the Coy to retire, and he reached C Coy who were still advancing. CAPT BOYLE and LT LYON reconnoitred to the front as far as the CHATEAU wood, when they were fired on from both corners of the wood. On returning they found themselves in a German Trench* LT LYON realising what had happened, went back to C Coy and collecting as many men as he could, charged the trench. No trace of CAPT BOYLE could be found. There was a considerable number of dead Germans in the trench. The order to retire was then given and the Coy fell back in good order. The order to withdraw was issued from 9^th Bde Headquarters because the remainder of the Brigade was unable to advance on our left. A new position was entrenched in rear of the CHATEAU wood.

Casualties CAPT SFRA HURT and LT COZENS-BROOKS killed and 2^ND LT CE GRAHAME wounded. CAPT The Hon J BOYLE and 2^ND LT HWF BARTON missing; NCOs and men 20 killed and 100 wounded.

[* There were a number of apparently but really sleeping Germans in the trench. CAPT BOYLE prodded one of these with his stick. The man woke up and shouted and he or another bayonetted CAPT BOYLE apparently killing him.]

[lostinspace]

Great information, guess it just proves that anything can happen during a battle, I would suppose the Western Front article has the same war diary account as its basis.

Dave

[Guest]

Dear All - sincere apologies for the 2nd Bn red herring (now amended in the title and corrected in the OP). Family was adamant he was originally 2nd Bn.....yes, I know. ......

Steven - thank you. If you manage to dig anything up on Atkinson, particularly the article, it would be gratefully received. I am a big collector of early battalion, Bde and Div histories and I have an unhealthy interest in the historiography of the Great War.

Dave - I would be interested in tracking down the Stand To! article. I have no idea who publishes Stand To!

Glen - many thanks. I assume this is the War Diary entry for 18th Oct 1914? 1st Bn War Diary is on order....I wonder why anyone would prod a dormant German in a trench without having a loaded revolver in one's hand. Especially a Boer War veteran. Curious. I do like a mystery. It seems there could be some mileage in this.......does the asterisked comment come from the War Diary or Buchan or the Stand To! article??

Thank you all. I am in your debt. MG

[Guest]

Anything in Gliddon's book on the Aristocracy in the Great War? If no-one else does, i can look this evening.

appreciated Steven...I have Gliddon's book at home. Not sure it is going to add anything that the family doesn't already know but maybe will reveal other facts. As you know the lack of an index makes it a tiresome book to use and I think it is not exhaustive, particularly with regards to Scotland's aristocrats..... let's see what it can add.... MG

[spof]

Martin

Yes that was from the war diary. The asterisk is for an entry in the right hand column of the page which usually says "See Appendix XYZ". Stand To! is the a WFA publication for its members so hopefully Dave can provide an issue number as I'd be interested in it as well.

As Capt Boyle's body was not left in the trench, he may not have been killed outright and was taken away for treatment/questioning. This early in the war, war was still seen as "a game" with rules and wounded enemy were treated with respect. It might be worth finding out which German units were involved and see if their war diaries have survived.

Glen

PS I see from CWGC that his widow became Lady Trenchard....any connection to Hugh Trenchard?

[lostinspace]

The "Stand To!" article is by Geoff Bridger, No. 22, 1988. In answer to the above question - "Captain Boyle and his wife had three children. She was the sister of Captain Bowlby (qv) and later married 'Boom' Trenchard, who became Marshall of the Royal Air Force Viscount Trenchard. She died in 1960." It's all in the link I provided above (No. 12), unless you can't access it???

Dave

[Guest]

Glen - thanks for the confirmation and taking the trouble to type it out. Much appreciated.

Dave. Thanks. Noted. It has spurred me to finally join the WFA....but sadly the past issues on the website only go back for 18 issues. I have emailed the WFA to see how I can get access to past issues. Navigation on the WFA website is a bit of a dark art it seems.

I see his memorial was restored fairly recently. it says a 'Cornish stone cross' but I think the author means a (suitably) celtic cross made from Cornish stone. I will contact the family this weekend once I have gathered all the info (and hopefully the contents of the Stand To! article). So far thanks to your help and the help of others I have already got far more information than I could have hoped for. It would be very interesting to try and find the German unit War Diary if such a thing exists - something I have never tried before.

Thanks again. MG

[Guest]

Some more information from The Scottish War Memorials Project Is that a son who died in WW2?

Mike

[Guest]

Some more information from The Scottish War Memorials Project Is that a son who died in WW2?

Mike

Mike. Many thanks for this link. Interesting that two Capt (Hon) Boyles died - one in each War. I suspect that they were related. The CWGC website says he was married (aged 34) at the time of his death so there might have been children. If not his son, then perhaps a nephew. Strangely the Capt (Hon) Patrick James Boyle Scots Guards from WWII on the memorial does not appear on the CWGC website. I know this is off topic and not WWI so please don't feel any need to respond. I will speak to the family.Edit: he died in 1946 according to the SNWM. Edit 2. Son of Capt Patrick James Boyle RN. This RN gentleman must have been Capt (Hon) James Boyle's brother who clearly was next in line for the title of 8th Earl of Glasgow. I see a Lt Col Boyle Royal Scots Fusiliers also died in WWII. Would be interesting to see if there was any family link.

On topic - there was a nice newspaper article on the thread. New info, but it seems conflicting info as the soldiers say he went ahead on his own and the WFA article says he went ahead with another Officer. The plot thickens.....

MG

[Guest]

Essex Newsman 5/12/1914

The Honourable James Boyle, Royal Scots Fusiliers, who was killed in action near La Bassee on October 18th, seved in the South African War, receiving the Queen's medal with 5 clasps. He married in 1908 Katherine Isabel Salvin, daughter of the late Mr Edward Salvin Bowlby, of Gilston Park.

I'm sure there will be more, but, work beckons.

The British Newspaper Archive, and Rhe Scotsman will be worth checking?

Mike

[Guest]

Essex Newsman 5/12/1914

The Honourable James Boyle, Royal Scots Fusiliers, who was killed in action near La Bassee on October 18th, seved in the South African War, receiving the Queen's medal with 5 clasps. He married in 1908 Katherine Isabel Salvin, daughter of the late Mr Edward Salvin Bowlby, of Gilston Park.

I'm sure there will be more, but, work beckons.

The British Newspaper Archive, and Rhe Scotsman will be worth checking?

Mike

Thanks Mike. The Lt Col Boyle who died in WWII was Lt Col Patrick John Salvin Boyle died at Anzio serving with the RSF.

On Topic, the War Diary records Capt (Hon) James Boyle was in C Coy and the WFA article says D Coy. A minor error in one or the other. The quote that he prodded a sleeping German with his stick must have come from Lt Lyon (the acting Adj who accompanied him on his recce) I guess. We shall see..... It is interesting that he armed himself with a stick. Not uncommon in the early months.

It reminds me of Capt Wegdwood Benn (later 1st Viscount Stansgate) Of the Middlesex Hussars who relates feeling rather foolish when a Turk lunged at him at Suvla Bay. He had forgotten to arm himself and was also carrying a stick. He was saved by a Yeoman.

MG