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jacksdad

Forest de Mormal

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jacksdad

Dear All

I am tracing the action of the NZEF (with the 37th and 62nd Divisions on their flanks- IV CORPS) when they advanced from Le Quesnoy through the forest and have been unable to locate a trench map for the Forest and east side towards Mauberge.

Can someone help me with a trench map covering The Forest de Mormal – and in particular Squares H, I, N, O, T & U.

Please email it to me on shephardnzef@live.com if high resolution, thanks in advance.

Thanks Roger

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Wendy Macpherson

Le Quesnoy is sheet 51a SE

Edit: Just reading TEW's reply below and the possible shortage of maps been drawn of the area. Are there any 51a trench maps held at Archives New Zealand or even Waiouru Military Museum. Perhaps email Doloris head archivist at Waiouru. If Archives NZ hold any maps you need urgently let me know, I can always find work to do there.

W

Edited by Wendy Mac...

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TEW

Roger,

I had an interest in Forest de Mormal and the involvment of the 62nd Div. I have my Grandfather's original maps but they are not the usual trench maps at 1:10000 etc. I also hunted for better maps and never found any. I think the advance eastward overtook any chance to make any quality maps and I'm not so sure the Germans were dug in as elsewhere. My maps show small sections of unconnected trenches which have no relation to the areas of conflict during Nov 1918 and I think they may have been german practise trenches.

I have posted (or maybe PM'd) about Mormal before and will dig out a link or re-post. I also found an account of the NZ forces which included maps and detailed accounts, will see if I can find that again.

EDIT, or maybe now!

http://christchurchcitylibraries.com/Heritage/Publications/NewZealandDivisionInFranceAndFlanders/NewZealandDivisionInFranceAndFlanders.pdf

Have you seen:

http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=197313

TEW

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jacksdad

Thanks Wendy and TEW

I just need a map that gives the layout of the squares, so I can place this over google earth to find the location of a few points of interest.

I have copied this map, held at the National Archives, which I found in the 1st NZIB HQ war dairy (WA 70) which covered the area, however in my rush I have only partly copied the map, across to the right side to the rows (vertically down map) N. 3, 9, 15, 21, 27, 33.

See below.

post-60057-0-75726700-1376470512_thumb.j

I just need to locate a few graves in the area to the right of this map

Cheers and thanks for your help Roger

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TEW

Have emailed 2 maps, hope they're of use. Not sure of dates for your map (above) and how that relates to mine and my 8th West Yorks/5th Devons diaries (62nd Div). I know the 5th Devons were spread out along N 8-15 on 5th Nov with the NZ forces on the right which seems to completely invert what your map says. 8th West Yorks 1st objective for 7th Nov was N 12-18.

TEW

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jacksdad

Excellent thanks TEW that is exactly what I am after, I have sent you a better quality shot of post #4 map. the NZEF is on the 62nd Division right. Cheers Roger

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Dbaulch

Hi TEW

Could I trouble you for the maps also. I'm researching the 16th Royal Welsh Fusiliers at the start of November 1918, I'm looking for Paul Jacque Farm which I believe is somewhere in the Forest de Mormal.

my email address is Dav.baulch@parexel.com

thanks in advance

Dav

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TEW

Dav,

Post noted, will look for the farm and email.

TEW

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Dbaulch

Thanks so much!

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CROONAERT

I'm looking for Paul Jacque Farm which I believe is somewhere in the Forest de Mormal.

2 and a half miles to the west of the southern section of the Forest of Mormal.... (British map reference 57B NE F16 a.9.1 (ish)). It still exists on modern IGN maps as the 'Ferme du Pont de Jacques')

Dave

post-357-0-77043700-1398268343_thumb.jpg

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Dbaulch

This is fantastic. Thanks so much for this. The war diary also mentions a village called Forest. some entries have been ammended to include "the" before the Forest, which is most confusing. However, there are distinct references to a small village called Forest so I'm sure it must have existed at the time. Google doesnt hint that it does now.

Is such a place visible on your maps?

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CROONAERT

The war diary also mentions a village called Forest. some entries have been ammended to include "the" before the Forest, which is most confusing. However, there are distinct references to a small village called Forest so I'm sure it must have existed at the time. Google doesnt hint that it does now.

Is such a place visible on your maps?

2 and a half miles down the same road and to the SW of Paul Jacques Farm...

The village is now called 'Forest en Cambresis' and is significant enough to appear on all IGN maps up to at least 1:250,000 scale. (Google map search can be pretty dire at times)

Dave.

post-357-0-67728000-1398269464_thumb.jpg

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Dbaulch

Amazing! Thank you so much for you rapid responses. We know the 16th RWF went into trenches at Englefontaine on the night of 3rd Nov, they attacked first thing on 4th. Are there any indications as to where the trenches/front line was at that time?

Also, and its a big favour, is there any way we could get these maps? We are aiming to head over there in July/August to retrace their steps.

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SteveMarsdin

Yes, as Dave says it's there today and like Le Cateau has the area appendage of "cambresis" :

On the old Cassini maps it shows as Forest (straight down the "chaussee brunehaut" from the farm).

post-48281-0-46408600-1398270894_thumb.j

You can use the French Geoportail site for some modern aerial views as well

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Dbaulch

Brilliant!

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CROONAERT

...Are there any indications as to where the trenches/front line was at that time?...

Unfortunately, being simply 'Enemy Rear Organisations' trenchmaps, there is no indication of frontline positions on any of those that I have for this area. Trenches themselves are few and far between on these too because of the location and period.

Dave.

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CROONAERT

... is there any way we could get these maps? ...

Have a look at the MacMaster maps website (http://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/ndx5to40.htm ). There is an annotated version of the map I posted from on there that appears to show positions though, not having looked closely at it, I'm not too sure what the annotations represent exactly (It's not really a site that I use regularly (if at all), though I know that quite a few people swear by it).

Dave

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Dbaulch

Thanks Dave. I looked into that site last night and spent some time getting what I need. Sadly the map I really want, east of 51A, doesnt exist there.

I also noticed the annotations, specifically blue flags that have been placed at intervals along the roman road.

Many thanks again

Dav

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CROONAERT

....I looked into that site last night and spent some time getting what I need. Sadly the map I really want, east of 51A, doesnt exist there...

East of 51A would be sheet 51. Are you needing anywhere specific from this sheet?

Dave

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Dbaulch

If you have a map that covered Englefontaine that would be great. All i could find was just too far SW to cover it Dave

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CROONAERT

Would be split between 4 maps wouldn't it? :doh:

Anyway, here're 4 extracts covering it....

North West....


... North East...


South West...


...and South East...

post-357-0-47525500-1398340326_thumb.jpg

post-357-0-64824500-1398340411_thumb.jpg

post-357-0-48749800-1398340460_thumb.jpg

post-357-0-08375700-1398340493_thumb.jpg

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Dbaulch

HA! typical. Amazing stuff. Thanks Dave!

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Dbaulch

Dave, which one of those would be 51SW 57aNW?

I have discovered a hand drawn map on tracing paper of the 38th Welsh Divison deployment for the attack on 4th Nov at Englefontaine. In pencil at the base is the reference above. Sadly there are next to no landmarks on the map but if i new which of the 4 maps above it was I could eye ball the whole thing. Many thanks in advance

Dav

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Dbaulch

It has been a productive evening of research. I have desiphered some writing on the hand drawn map and identified a stream, the Ru des Eclusettes which appears on the map you sent Dave of the SE portion of Englefontaine. Could you send the full map?

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