Interpreting a Medal Roll Index card

[dismorr59]

Here is another attempt (apologies) at finding out more about Lt / Capt George Graham Thomson, whose military service I am trying to research on behalf of a friend, and I am particularly keen to fill in the missing pieces, where possible, before a visit to the Western Front battle sites next week.

George Thomson's medal card (photo attached) indicates he was with the Nth Staffs Reg, but was also attached to a Cheshire battalion, and that his entry to France was on the 17th of Feb 1915. Given this date of entry should I be concentrating on looking up diaries etc of Nth Staff Bns or of Cheshire Bns?

I have had no luck in finding his service records which suggest, I suppose, that he was still serving after 1922.

Another point, the significance of which I am unsure about, is that on his citation for his MC( July 1917) it indicates that he was a special reservist.

Any help will be much appreciated.

Stephen

[ss002d6252]

The 17th Feb 1915 is the date he went overseas - he joined the North Staffs on this date (or shortly after) however the problem will be in determining how soon after he was attached to the Cheshires.

Your probably best off starting with the North Staffs and then the Cheshires.

I have had no luck in finding his service records which suggest, I suppose, that he was still serving after 1922.

The officers records are still with the National Archives and have not yet been digitised.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

Another point, the significance of which I am unsure about, is that on his citation for his MC( July 1917) it indicates that he was a special reservist.

The London Gazette of 9 March 1915 has him with the 3rd North Staffordshire as being a probationary 2nd Lt now confirmed in his rank.

[ss002d6252]

He joined the Special Reserve from an OTC (or was an ex-cadet of the OTC). The London Gazette of 2 Oct 1914 has him with the 3rd North Staffordshire as being a cadet/ex-cadet of the Officer Training Coprs who had been commissioned as a probationary 2nd Lt with effect from 3 Oct 1914.

Craig

[spof]

His MC citation was gazetted on 27.7.17 for an act of gallantry near Lens in April 1917 and has him still in the North Staffs Special Reserve attd 1 Bn and MGC so his transfer to the Cheshires.

The index to officers' papers in WO 338 lists a George Graham Thomson in 3/64 Regiment and the 64th REgiment of Foot later became 1st North Staffs so 3rd Bn North Staffs. It also mentions Tanks and shows a P number meaning his servicerecord is still with the MoD but can be obtained from here

The "Emblems" mentioned on his MIC is for a Mention in Dispatches.

Glen

[dismorr59]

Craig and Glen

Fantastic - thank you

Further questions - would he have gone out as an individual officer independently in Feb 1915 so as to have joined the 3rd Nth Staffs, or would he have been part of a draft? And Glen, are you suggesting that he was operating with the Cheshire Reg when attached to a Machine gun company?

Any idea whether he fought at the battle of the Somme?

Stephen

[ss002d6252]

Further questions - would he have gone out as an individual officer independently in Feb 1915 so as to have joined the 3rd Nth Staffs, or would he have been part of a draft?

Either is possible - sometimes individual officers were sent and sometimes groups of officers. They also sometimes accompanied drafts of men.

He started off in the 3rd Bn but he didn't serve overseas with them. The 3rd Bn remained on home service so its most likely he served with the 1st Bn in France (which ties in with the medal citation).

Craig

[spof]

Stephen

The 3rd Bn was a reserve one and never left the UK. There is a brief outline of the N orth Staffs battalions here.As a Special Reservist this would have been his "normal" battalion. It appears that the 1st were the only North Staffs unit if France in Feb 1915 so he is likely have been sent as a replacement and attached to the 1st. By 1917, it seems he was still on attached to the 1st battalion but have then been attached to the MGC. The war diaries may have dates on his move. As far as the Army was concerned, this wasn't a permanent move so they considered him still with 3rd battalion.

For some reason he was then permanently transferred to the Cheshires before returning to the NS. That may have been at the end of the war or very close to it.

If you use the full editor you ought to be able to change the title of this thread. If you change it to something like George Thomason North Staffs, it may attract the attention of experts on the regimetn.

Glen

[KevinBattle]

Junior officers would often be sent out in charge of a draft of men, to be responsible for them in transit until arrival at the base depot in France.

They may not have been men destined for the North Staffs, but to go for further training for life in the trenches.

The other clue on the MIC is that a 2nd Lieutenant is junior to a Captain, therefore he would have gone over in the lower rank and then promoted to Captain.

It omits reference to him being a Lieutenant, but frequently officers were appointed to a temporary or acting rank above their actual paid rank, due to casualty attrition and on transfer sometimes the higher rank would be the one confirmed in the new battalion.

As suggested, it's useful to change the title to the name and regiment you are requiring assistance on, or for relatives to trace this information in the future.

[dismorr59]

Dear Glen and Kevin

Thank you very much for the extra information. Clearly my first port of call must be to investigate the war diaries etc of the 1st Btn Nth Staffs - I had got it into my head that perhaps he had been attached to the Cheshires when he went to France, and therefore I would have wasted much time trawling through records relating to the a Cheshire Btn. As suggested I will now ask a more direct question on the forum about George Graham Thomson and the 1st Btn Nth Staffs.

Stephen

[KevinBattle]

Stephen

No need to start a new thread which will have to include he info on here

As Glen says

If you use the full editor you ought to be able to change the title of this thread. If you change it to something like George Thomson, North Staffs & Cheshires, it may attract the attention of experts on the regiment

That way people who might be deterred from helping can see all the info in one place, rather than switching between two.

To use the Full Editor, first hover and click on the Edit button on your first post and it then allows you to change the heading.

The Mods can do it, but they have enough to do, but will always help a newcomer such as you, if you have at least made the effort!

[Stebie9173]

Here are the relevant London Gazette entries for his promotions:

SPECIAL RESERVE OF OFFICERS.

INFANTRY.

The undermentioned Cadets and exCadets of the Officers Training Corps, to be Second Lieutenants (on probation). Dated 3rd October, 1914: —

Cecil Fleming' Baldwyn, 5th Battalion, Worcester Regiment.

Raymond Frederick Dunnett, 5th Battalion, Worcester Regiment.

Robert Henry Hawkins, 3rd Battalion, South Staffordshire Regiment.

Stanley Bryan Knapp-Fisher, 3rd Battalion, North Staffordshire Regiment.

James Allan Gordon Leask, 3rd Battalion, Royal Lancaster Regiment.

Leonard Lupton, 3rd Battalion Royal Lancaster Regiment.

Lothian Basil Stevens, 3rd Battalion, South Staffordshire Regiment.

William Gerald Furness Smith, 3rd Battalion, North Staffordshire Regiment.

George Graham Thomson, 3rd Battalion, North Staffordshire Regiment.

http://www.london-ga...8922/pages/7815

London Gazette 5-3-1915

The dates of appointment and the order of precedence of Second Lieutenants shown in the undermentioned units are as now stated, and not as previously notified in earlier 'Gazettes: —

3rd Battalion, The Prince of Wales's (North Staffordshire Regiment).

D. M. Smyth. Dated 4th July, 1914.

G. C. James (on probation). Dated 15th August, 1914.

N. O. Clarke (on probation). Dated 15th August, 1914.

H. H.W.Pulleine (on probation). Dated 15th August, 1914.

L. H. C. Cure (on probation). Dated 15th August, 1914.

W. G. F. Smith (on probation). Dated 3rd October, 1914.

G. G. Thomson (on probation). Dated 3rd October, 1914.

P. Washington (on probation). Dated 17th October, 1914.

C. L. M. Scott (on probation). Dated 1st November, 1914.

G. D. Chew (on probation). Dated 7th November, 1914.

P. McLuskie (on probation). Dated 7th November, 1914.

H. C. F. Plant (on probation). Dated 28th November, 1914.

C. Sprey-Smith (on probation). Dated 12th December, 1914.

http://www.london-ga...091/pages/2253/

London Gazette 10-7-1915

SPECIAL RESERVE OF OFFICERS.

3rd Battalion, The Prince of Wales's (North Staffordshire Regiment), The undermentioned Second Lieutenants to be Lieutenants:—

Dated 24th June, 1915.

William G. F. Smith.

George G. Thomson.

Peter Washington.

Charles L. M. Scott.

George D. Chew.

http://www.london-ga...pplements/6808/

London Gazette 26-7-1917

Capt. George Graham Thomson, N. Staff. R., Spec. Res.

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. He commanded the left company in the attack on the village. It was largely due to his determination in pushing through that the enemy rearguard was driven back and the village taken. He has done fine work throughout.

http://www.london-ga...upplements/7641

London Gazette 15-2-1921

SPECIAL RESERVE OF OFFICERS.

RESERVE UNITS.

INFANTRY

The undermentioned relinquish, their commns. 1st Apr. 1920: —

3rd N. Stafford R.— Gapt. G. G. Thomson, M.C., and retains the rank of Capt.

http://www.london-ga...upplements/1344

London Gazette 25-11-1921

REGULAR FORCES.

INFANTRY.

N. Stafford. R.—

Capt. George Graham Thomson, M.C., late 3rd Bn., Spec. Res., to be Lt., 26th Nov. 1921, with seniority 15th Dec. 1916, and precedence next below J. T. Leese, and to relinquish the rank of Capt. granted in the Gazette of 15th Feb. 1921.

http://www.london-ga...upplements/9615

London Gazette 7-12-1923

War Office,

7th December, 1923.

REGULAR FORCES

INFANTRY.

N. Stafford. R.—Lt. G. G. Thomson, M.C., to be Capt. 8th Sept. 1923.

http://www.london-ga...2886/pages/8538

London Gazette 8-1-1926

War Office,

8th January, 1926.

REGULAR FORCES.

INFANTRY.

N. Stafford R.—

Capt. G. G. Thomson, M.C., is secd, for serv. under the Colonial Office. 4th Dec. 1925.

Capt. V. D. O'Malley, M.C., is restd. to the estabt. 4th Dec. 1925.

http://www.london-ga...33122/pages/214

London Gazette 23-2-1934

REGULAR ARMY.

INFANTRY.

N. Stafford R.—Capt. G. G. Thomson, M.C., retires on ret. pay. 6th Feb. 1934.

http://www.london-ga...4026/pages/1230

London Gazette 1-11-1935

REGULAR ARMY RESERVE OF OFFICERS.

N. Stafford R.—

Capt. G. G. Thomson, M.C. (ret. pay) to be Capt. 6th Feb. 1934, with seniority 1st Jan. 1918.

http://www.london-ga...4215/pages/6903

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

This record, held in the Staffordshire Regiment museum, may be of interest:

From Maj G G Thomson to Col Cook describing conditions in Deeville Wood NSR/7624/11 no date

Letter

http://www.nationala...8-nsr&cid=-1#-1

He became a Major in the second bash:

N. Stafford R.

Capt. G. G. Thomson, M.C. (9716), to be Bt. Maj. 10th Jan. 1941.

http://www.london-ga...pplements/1582/

He was became a Companion of the Imperial Service Order in 1959 for Civil Service work in Nyasaland.

Major George Graham THOMSON, M.C., Road Service Authority, Nyasaland.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/41727/supplements/3724/page.pdf

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

The University of London OTC Roll of War Service has three entries for him:

MID in F.M. Haig's despatch of 13-11-1916;

His Military Cross;

and a brief summary of service:

Thomson, Capt. George Graham., M.C., North Staffs. Regt., Univ. Coll.; France Jan to May 1915 (wounded), France Feb 1916 to Apr 1919; M.C.; Mentioned in Despatches

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

G G Thomson's name appears on a list of wounded in the Times of 17th May 1915 - whilst attached to 2nd Bn. Cheshire Regiment:

Publication of the wounding of officers in the Times would usually be subject to a delay of about one to two weeks after the event. He was most probably wounded on or around the 8th May 1915 - see John Hartley's site on Stockport soldiers:

http://www.stockport...res2ndbattalion

Peter Washington, on the same list, seems to have had a similar career in the war to George Thomson, serving in both 2nd Cheshires and 1st North Staffordshire Regiment.

I would be tempted to suggest that his period of service in France between February 1915 and May 1915 was on attachment to the 2nd Cheshires, and then he returned to the North Staffordshire Regiment to go back to France in 1916, presumably with a battalion that was at Delville Wood (which I suspect is what the "Deeville Wood" is in the Museum letter in the earlier post).

Assuming the Delville Wood reference is to 1916, the only North Staffordshire Regiment battalion I can see as being in the wood was ....... 1st Battalion.

I suspect that "Colonel Cook" to whom the Delville Wood letter was addressed was Colonel Hugh Christopher Bult Cook (1910-1998) who wrote the book "Famous Regiments: The North Staffordshire Regiment".

Ray Westlake's British Battalions on the Somme actually refers to the Regimental History noting the "dreadful conditions in the wood" and that "rotting corpses filled the wood", "the smell penetrating the atmosphere". This may have even come from George Thomson's letter? Having said that it would probably be reported the same by anyone he asked!

Steve.

[dismorr59]

Dear Kevin and Steve

Your information provides fantastic help to me in this particular line of research - I can't thank you enough. I have just returned from a frustrating day at the National Archives at Kew, where was trying to research George Thomson's brother Douglas - I could only turn up a medical report as it seems that Douglas of the Duke of Wellington Regiment was unfit for duty for most of the war owing to illness picked up in Gallipoli - so your positive information was a real tonic.

Steve, the Time's information citing his wounding in 1915, suggesting he was then attached to the 2nd Bn Cheshire reg is most useful.

Stephen

[Stebie9173]

The Army List of August 1918 lists him as a Captain with the 3rd Battalion North Staffordshire Regiment - his date of promotion / seniority as Captain is list as 2nd December 1915. His name is in italics, which denotes that he is supernumerary (above the normal Establishment of officers) and/or on secondment. An officer who has served overseas as long as he seems to have done would be due a period of service in the UK away from the front line which may be what he was doing at that time.

The June 1915 Arrmy List shows both G G Thomson and P Washington as Second Lieutenants attached to the Cheshire Regiment.

The March 1916 Army List shows G G Thomson as a Captain attached to the 1st Battalion of the North Staffordshire Regiment (with seniority of 2-12-1915).

The October 1916 Army List shows both G G Thomson and P Washington as Captains attached to the 1st Battalion of the North Staffordshire Regiment (both with seniority of 2-12-1915).

The February 1917 Army List shows G G Thomson as a Captain of the North Staffordshire Regiment attached to the Machine Gun Corps, (the Heavy Branch thereof being the precursor of the Tank Corps) (with seniority of 2-12-1915).

The October 1917 Army List shows G G Thomson as a Captain of the North Staffordshire Regiment attached to the Tank Corps (with seniority of 2-12-1915). The Tank Corps page of the same list shows his date of joining the Tank Corps as 15-12-1916.

Steve.

[dismorr59]

Steve

All your considerable help here has been invaluable to me, I can't thank you enough - and your latest information that he was firstly with the MGC and then the Tank Corps and the date of his attachment to the latter is most interesting to me and to Alex (George Thomson's great nephew) for whom I am carrying out the research.

Stephen

[Stebie9173]

_{Bearing in mind the date of the award of the Military Cross, it would seem possible that the "company" referred to in the MC citation may actually refer to a company of tanks rather than an infantry company.}

[dismorr59]

Steve

Yes, given the date you had given for when he joined the tank corps I had come to that as a possible conclusion.

Once in the tank corps would there be any connection with where his tank company saw action in relation to where the 1st Bn Nth Staffs was fighting, or would the two units be completely disconnected?

I am going to start a new topic regarding the identification of regiment according to the uniform shown in a photo worn by an officer - Officer unknown but possibly it is George Thomson given the photo came from Alex's family album Originally. it was thought that the officer was Alex's paternal great grandfather, Harry Letts, but we have recently discovered he was a private in the Leicester Regiment; unfortunately there is no writing on the reverse side. I would be interested in your thoughts. I have attached the photo.

Stephen

[Stebie9173]

I am not sure about the picture - I think the North Staffordshire collar badge was the crown with the Staffordshire knot below, which that badge does not resemble. It looks like it has a scroll beneath the badge.

Just for purposes of putting things into a little order, I think I would tentatively categorise his army career during 1914-18 as:

Sep 1914 to Feb 1915 - Training with 3rd Battalion North Staffordshire Regiment

Feb 1915 to May 1915 - Attached to 2nd Cheshire Regiment until wounded at Ypres in May 1915, possibly at Frezenberg on 8th May 1915

May 1915 to Feb 1916 - Recuperation in England

Feb 1916 to Dec 1916 - Attached to 1st Battalion North Staffordshire Regiment, going through the Somme with them notably at Delville Wood at the end of August 1916

Dec 1916 to 1918 - Attached to the Machine Gun Corps Heavy Branch and later the Tank Corps. Awarded M.C. at Arras.

1918 - Seconded, but to location unknown, possibly having earnt a six-month home duty posting?

Does this sound plausible?

Steve.

[dismorr59]

Yes, this sounds very plausible and provides a superb framework from which to launch further research - thank you.

Stephen

[Old Owl]

Stephen,

The photo which you show is definitely not the officer whom you are researching. He may be related somehow, but the photo shows his collars as Duke of Wellington's W.R.R.

Robert

[dismorr59]

Robert

Thank you for confirming that the officer belongs to the Duke of Wellington Regiment. It could therefore be of George Thomson's brother who was an officer with the Duke of Wellington Reg and who I have also been researching. However, the photo (attached) I have of Douglas initially looks rather different owing to the hat and moustache. However, the two could be one and the same - any thoughts?

Stephen

Douglas Photo.doc

[funnys]

hey guys im trying to find info on my great uncle i found his medal card which is corneilus donovan he first served in 9th lancs fusililers reg num 15319 but could anyone tell me what th 'x' is beside the victory as i thought it ment victory cross but nothing x thanks