order of Battle cavalry

[von Smallhausen]

Hello,

Can anyone recommend me a good work or website about the order of battle of the cavalry?

For the moment I'm working on the 74th division, last weeks WWI. I saw C squadron of King Edwards Horse were involved, after a long search I saw C Sqdn KEH was part of the III Corps (74th Div was also part of the III Corps, so that make sense) I also saw a troop of the 19th Hussars were joining the 74th Div. ... I cannot find a link between the 19th Hussars and the 74th Div. . Becke, in his in his "Order of Battle" book ( part 2B) doesn't show anything about the mounted troops during the last weeks of the War.

Would appreciate your help Ladies, Gentlemen,

Jef

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Jet

British Regiments 1914-1918 by E A James, published in a modern reprint by Naval & Military Press will help you.

However, after May 1916 mounted troops were withdrawn from infantry divisions, which is why Becke does not help very much. 74th Division was formed with infantry converted from dismounted yeomanry regiments, but any attachments of mounted troops would have been only on a temporary basis.

The regimental histories of KEH and 19th Hussars might also be of use.

Ron

[Steven Broomfield]

The regimental histories of ... 19th Hussars might also be of use.

Ron

Not sure there is one of those.

During the Advance to Victory many mounted units were attached to infantry divisions on the same basis as in 1914: in open warfare it was useful to have mounted troops for scouting (I can't spell reconnaissance), outposts, pickets, etc. The 2nd Cavalry Division was effectively broken up to provide these troops (normally a Squadron to a Division); although the 19th Hussars were with the 1st Cavalry Division, I'd suspect they may well have provided troops for any infantry division in the area.

As the KEH were Corps Cavalry it would certainly make sense for them to be so used.

I can check in the history of the 74th Division this evening, and also the 15th Hussars (who were in the same Brigade as the 19th) in case they make any mention.

[von Smallhausen]

Thank you Ron and Steven,

I have the book British Regiments by James. It has been a great help and that's where I found the information about the KEH. But sometimes it's quite confusing. In previous messages I have said I am making a study about the very last days of the Second and Fift Armies of WWI. That's about the place where I live. So I'm working from north to south, and see every division sector.

Sometimes during the advance, some cavalry units take over the line of the infantry. ... an example: during the advance of the 29th Div. , suddenly the 7th Dragoon Guards take over the line(you know that famous last cavalry charge with Freyberg VC) When I look to British Regiments I see the 7/DG were part of the 7 Cav. Bde. But I never know to which Division, Corps or Army the 7th Cav Bde.is attached to. And in many cases, it's only one Squadron which is attached...And that's confusing. I know the" order of battle" is a key to understand better what really happened, but not all the units are mentioned.

By the way, is there an "Order of battle" on Corps level?

Have one more question about nomenclature : In British literature we read all the time (example) 8/ Black Watch; 15/London Regiment..... I know it goes about the 8th Battalion BW and the 15th Bn. London Rgt. But what about 15th Hussars...... is this the 15th Battalion Hussars or the 15th Rgt Hussars. Here on the continent I have heard all kind of things Cavalry is something special I experienced.

Thank you Steven for looking in the Divisional history, I only have a few pages in copy.

Jef

[Steven Broomfield]

Cavalry were numbered consecutively and did not have a territorial connection, so whereas the old 1st Foot became the Royal scots, and the 22nd Foot became the Cheshire regiment, cavalry regiments stayed as numbers.

In 1914 there were 28 Line Cavalry Regiments

1st to 7th Dragoon Guards

1st, 2nd and 6th Dragoons

3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 18th, 19th and 20th Hussars

5th, 9th, 12th, 16th, 17th and 21st Lancers

The reason that Dragoon Guards were numbered outside the numbering for other cavalry was historic: they were descended from the "Horse" of the 17th century and felt themselves rather better than the rest, mostly descended from rather infra dig Dragoon (Mounted Infantry, almost) regiments.

Many of the cavalry regiments used names (for instance, the 2nd Dragoon Guards were the Quen's Bays, and the 6th Dragoons were the Inniskillings), but no territorial attachments, beyond Scotland (2nd Dragoons - Royal Scots Greys), or Ireland (such as the 8th King's Royal Irish Hussars.

Cavalry were discrete regiments, although recruitment would be to a "Corps of Hussars", or "Corps of lancers", which meant men would be transferred between regiments as required, such as a regiment proceeding to India would swap time-expired men to one regiment in exchange for long-service men from another.

Hope that helps. There will be a short quiz next period.

[von Smallhausen]

Thank you Steven for your explanation.

Jef

[Steven Broomfield]

Jef. Limited assistance: have you a date in mind? The History of the 15th Hussars refers to the regiment being broken up in late August between divisions of VI Corps (particularly Guards, 2nd, 3rd and 62nd), but this didn't last long and the Brigade was quickly reunited. The next reference to them being attached to infantry was with III Corps for the March to the German Border.

The only reference I can find in the 74th Division's history is an Operations Order for the attack on 18th September, in which each Infantry Brigade had a half troop of the Northumberland Hussars attached.

Apart from that, not much, I'm afraid.

[von Smallhausen]

Hello Steven,

My dates of interest are 1 till 11 november 1918.

You are refering the 15/Hussars to the III corps, the 74th Div were III Corps as well. This makes it quite a logical explanation.

Thank you for your help.

kind regards,

Jef

[Ron Clifton]

By the way, is there an "Order of battle" on Corps level?

Jet

There is a Part 4 of Becke, covering GHQs, Armies and Corps, but it does not give full Orders of Battle for these higher formations. It was intended to do so, but the book was published amid the restrictions on both money and the provision of paper after WW2. (Becke: "To have done so would have almost doubled the size of this Part.")

E A James also produced a book, A Record of the Battles and Engagements of the British Armies in France and Flanders, 1914-1918. It too has been reprinted by Naval & Military Press (under their former name, London Stamp Exchange). It does not go below Divisional level, except for minor exceptions (mainly in 1914)

The Orders of Battle for France are available at Kew in files WO95/5467 to 5469. They were published at roughly monthly intervals. For further details I'm afraid you would have to go to individual unit and formation War Diaries.

I have begun collating information on Corps and Army orbats, but I have not gone beyond the information in the Kew files I have mentioned, and I could not find any references to a troop of 19th Hussars being attached to 74th Division. If there's nothing about it in Becke Part 2B, then I don't think there is another shortcut.

Ron

[Steven Broomfield]

74th Division history makes mention of a "patrol of King Edward's Horse" going ahead of the 229th Brigade in late October; apart from that, nothing.

I also checked in the history of the third regiment of the 9th Cavalry Brigade - the 8th King's Royal Irish Hussars - and no joy there, I'm afraid.

[von Smallhausen]

74th Division history makes mention of a "patrol of King Edward's Horse" going ahead of the 229th Brigade in late October; apart from that, nothing.

I also checked in the history of the third regiment of the 9th Cavalry Brigade - the 8th King's Royal Irish Hussars - and no joy there, I'm afraid.

Yes Steven, I read the sentence about the KEH on page 240 of the 74 divisional history, and this sentence made me very curiuos ...

Anout the records of the RWF, the 25th Bn was advance guard that moment. On page 495 ( Vol 4) I read ... toghether with a troop of the 19th Hussars.....

This was the reason why I put a message in this wonderfull forum.

Thank you gentlemen for your help,

Jef