Two Brothers? from 1st Battalion Northamptonshire KIA on Same Day

[Hallaton1]

Hello

I guess I'm hoping a real expert on the Northamptonshire Regiment can help me out.

I'm trying to find out about two men whose surname was Fovargue both from Crowland who died on 9th May 1915. I have a small extract with photos from the Peterborough Advertiser (?) which states that they were brothers.

They are Pte John Thomas Fovargue 6938 and Pte Willam Fovargue 16532.

Unfortunately things are a bit confusing. Ancestry links to the brother of John Thomas, called Willam James and CWGC lists a William James but in the details gives the name of his mother as Mrs J Beasley and if correct he can't be the brother of John Thomas but maybe his cousin? I have researched Mrs J Beasley who appears to have been a Fovargue before marrying and had a son called William John. So I guess I'm asking where is the error likely to be?

Also how common was it for members of the same family to be killed in the same battle on the same day? I guess more common than we might think.

Could someone also confirm that John Thomas must at some time have been a regular soldier due to his relatively low number and early entry into the war (27.8.1914 according to his medal card). I gather there was a so-called white flag incident involving the Northamptonshires and wondered if John Thomas could have been involved in it.

many thanks

Max

[Stebie9173]

Having noted at least seven sets of brothers in the Northamptonshire Regiment who were killed on 9th May 1915 I hadn’t picked up on the Fovargues as part of that list. I will try and work out whether they were a bit later.

John’s number would suggest an enlistment in about March 1903. This would probably have been on terms of three years active service and nine on reserve, initially for UK on service (this was the norm following the 2nd Boer War). A good proportion of these men extended that service to seven years active and five of reserve. The active period was sometimes extended to eight years if the man was on overseas service when the seven years active service came to an end. He would either have been recalled from reserve in August 1914 or still serving (though he was most likely a reservist). Because he was at the higher age range of the recalled reservists he went out with the first set of reinforcements for the 1st Battalion rather than the initial contingent.

The “white flag incident” (actually the most serious of a number of incidents that occurred on the Aisne in 1914) occurred near the hamlet of Troyon on 17th September 1914, so John at least is likely to have been there at that time. Troyon doesn’t seem to exists anymore and it is best to find the area by finding Cerny-en-Laonnois. The 2nd Infantry Brigade was deployed east from that village along the Chemin des Dames with the Northamptons being on the right of the brigade deployment. As often occurs in these incidents, witness statements vary between “a ploy of the fiendish Hun” to the Germans realising just how few British soldiers they were attempting to surrender to!

Steve.

[aradgick]

William James Fovargue, the brother of John Thomas, was born in 1882.

The William James Fovargue on CWGC was aged 21 when he was killed in 1915, giving a birth in about 1894. So it is NOT JT's brother who was killed on the same day.

I think William James's death is the one registered in Q1/1961 at Bourne, Lincilnshire, aged 78.

Andrewr

[Hallaton1]

Having noted at least seven sets of brothers in the Northamptonshire Regiment who were killed on 9th May 1915 I hadn’t picked up on the Fovargues as part of that list. I will try and work out whether they were a bit later.

John’s number would suggest an enlistment in about March 1903. This would probably have been on terms of three years active service and nine on reserve, initially for UK on service (this was the norm following the 2nd Boer War). A good proportion of these men extended that service to seven years active and five of reserve. The active period was sometimes extended to eight years if the man was on overseas service when the seven years active service came to an end. He would either have been recalled from reserve in August 1914 or still serving (though he was most likely a reservist). Because he was at the higher age range of the recalled reservists he went out with the first set of reinforcements for the 1st Battalion rather than the initial contingent.

The “white flag incident” (actually the most serious of a number of incidents that occurred on the Aisne in 1914) occurred near the hamlet of Troyon on 17th September 1914, so John at least is likely to have been there at that time. Troyon doesn’t seem to exists anymore and it is best to find the area by finding Cerny-en-Laonnois. The 2nd Infantry Brigade was deployed east from that village along the Chemin des Dames with the Northamptons being on the right of the brigade deployment. As often occurs in these incidents, witness statements vary between “a ploy of the fiendish Hun” to the Germans realising just how few British soldiers they were attempting to surrender to!

Steve.

Steve

Thanks for this info. It looks as if they were cousins from Andrewr's answer, though the name doesn't seem quite correct.

Is the war diary the best place to go for a description of the white flag incident or are there more revealing histories? Do you know if there was much in the papers about it?

thanks

Max

[Hallaton1]

William James Fovargue, the brother of John Thomas, was born in 1882.

The William James Fovargue on CWGC was aged 21 when he was killed in 1915, giving a birth in about 1894. So it is NOT JT's brother who was killed on the same day.

I think William James's death is the one registered in Q1/1961 at Bourne, Lincilnshire, aged 78.

Andrewr

Andrew

Thanks for this.

I have another mystery possibly concerning this person.

The medal card for William J Fovargue indicates his medals were incorrectly inscribed. It also lists his his date of entry to France as 11.3.1915 His mother is listed as Mrs J Beasley (though I note she died in 1912)

There is another medal card for William Beasley also of the Northamptonshire Regiment pte 9879 who also has an entry date of 11.3.1915 and is stated as being KIA. However, I can find no obvious match on the CWGC website. Could they be the same person? or two different people?

The 1901 census indicates he went by the name of William John Fovargue Beasley.

[Stebie9173]

I think that "cousin" William (who I think we must assume was the one killed) was named William James per the Birth Registrations (Sep Quarter 1894) and William John per the 1901 Census. The 1911 Census has him as William Fovargue with the Beasleys.

The "renaming" of 16532 William James Fovargue (the medal roll confirms middle name of James) appears to have been solely in relation to his number. The medal roll originally shows 16532, then was changed to 13532 before being changed back to 16532.

The 9879 WIlliam Beasley has no other names shown on the medal roll. His entry has no date against discharge which usually means that the man continued serving after the war beyond the date of the medal roll's production (13-3-1920 in this case). I don't have any note as to who William Beasley's next of kin were. He was, possibly coincidentally, wounded at Aubers Ridge on 9th May 1915. I can't see any statement on his medal card that he was KIA, but his medal roll reference reads K/1/1A which you may have picked up on?

The best places to look for details on the White Flag incident are the regimental history (Northamptonshire Regiment 1914 - 1918) and "The First Three Months" by Evelyn Jack Needham, though the latter is very rare (and expensive).

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

I assume that this is the article you have - from the Peterborough Advertiser of 24th July 1915:

I have to say William Fovargue (left) looks closer to age 20 than 32 in that picture.... I can't make out the date of enlistment, but his number would mean that he joined on 24th November 1914, unless the issue with his number meant that he had to be issued with a replacement.

"Private Clarke of Farcet" shown on the image could be either 16537 George William Clarke or 16539 Frederick Leonard Clarke, who were in fact one of the pairs of brothers killed in action with the 1st Battalion Northamptonshire regiment on 9th May 1915. Note the numbers which are extremely close to 16532 William James Fovargue - I suspect these men were all mates, with William perhaps working at a farm at Farcet or Farcet Fen, where the Clarke boys were from, when he enlisted?

Both Clarke brothers appear on the Farcet War Memorial (as F. Clarke and G. Clarke) - as does "W. Fovargue"

Steve.

[Hallaton1]

Hi Steve

Thanks for clearing everything up. I'm pretty sure after digging around on ancestry last night that William and John Fovargue were first cousins both born in Crowland as far as I can see.

The responses on here are always so good, helpful and informative so many thanks once again. I'll check out the books you listed in the library.

All the best

Max

[Stebie9173]

For the record there is:

Royal Navy Ratings Records

Reference:ADM 188/948/40546

Name: Fovargue, William James

Official Number: K40546

Place of Birth: Spalding, Lincolnshire

Date of Birth: 13 August 1882

Date: [1917]

Held by: The National Archives, Kew

Former references: in its original department: Vol.No. K40-2

Legal status: Public Record

http://discovery.nat...ls?uri=D6998406

The date of birth does seem to match, plus obviously Crowland is not a zillion miles from Spalding.

The (not very detailed) Royal Navy medal rolls shows him entitled to 1914-15 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal, and was a 1st Class Stoker.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

The note I have regarding John Fovargue's earlier wounding refers to the Times Casualty Lists of 6th January 1915 where he was noted as wounded. By circumstantial evidence (i.e. other men wounded on the same list who have service records) he may have been wounded on or about the 2nd/3rd November 1918 when the battalion were caught up in the defence of Ypres. The battalion war diary was lost for this period, the Regimental history noting that they were in a hastily constructed trench in Shrewsbury Forest where they withstood several German attacks from the nearby enemy trenches on the night of the 2nd/3rd and then were heavily shelled on the 3rd.


Looking at other men who enlisted around the same time in March 1903, quite a number were posted straight to the 2nd Battalion in South Africa (now on peacetime duty) in July 1903 remaining there until the battalion returned to England in May 1904. 1st Battalion were serving in India at that time, which due to the Boer War taking the 2nd Battalion abroad meant that both regular battalions of the Regiment were on overseas duty at the same time for a period of five years. There was a UK based "Details" Company (effectively an extra Company of 2nd Battalion) during the time, and the Depot was of course still running in the UK, so he may not have served overseas in 1903-1904.


Steve.

[Hallaton1]

The note I have regarding John Fovargue's earlier wounding refers to the Times Casualty Lists of 6th January 1915 where he was noted as wounded. By circumstantial evidence (i.e. other men wounded on the same list who have service records) he may have been wounded on or about the 2nd/3rd November 1918 when the battalion were caught up in the defence of Ypres. The battalion war diary was lost for this period, the Regimental history noting that they were in a hastily constructed trench in Shrewsbury Forest where they withstood several German attacks from the nearby enemy trenches on the night of the 2nd/3rd and then were heavily shelled on the 3rd.

Looking, at other men who enlisted around the same time in March 1903, quite a number were posted straight to the 2nd Battalion in South Africa (now on peacetime duty) in July 1903 remaining there until the battalion returned to England in May 1904. 1st Battalion were serving in India at that time, which due to the Boer War taking the 2nd Battalion abroad meant that both regular battalions of the Regiment were on overseas duty at the same time for a period of five years. There was a UK based "Details" Company (effectively an extra Company of 2nd Battalion) during the time, and the Depot was of course still running in the UK, so he may not have served overseas in 1903-1904.

Steve.

Hi Steve

Thanks so much for this information. I assume by the Times that you refer to the national paper of that name and not a local paper. Do you think it would be worth checking the local papers around that date?

many thanks

Max

[Stebie9173]

Yes, it is the Times national newspaper (lists were also in other national dailies).. And I, of course, meant November 1914 not 1918!

The only article I can find in the local papers regarding his wounding is this in the Peterborough & Hunts Standard of 21-11-1914.

Steve.