4th Bn. Grenadier Guards 1916

[wagstaff]

Towards the end of this month, my wife and I will be going to pay our respects at the Thiepval Memorial to a family member and to all of those who gave their lives. My late relative was Ernest Wagstaff, of the Grenadier Guards (Private 17904). He had been wounded at LaBassee in February 1915 and, after convalescing, returned to the front in October 1915.

Using his service number 17904, I have tried to obtain his service record without success. As I understand it, some records were lost in a fire in the U.K. Does anyone know how I can find out the action his Battalion would have been engaged in when he met his end and if any medals have been posthumously awarded? If so, I presume they would have been given to his next of kin. Lastly, does anyone know where I could obtain a replica of his cap badge circa 1916?

As a matter of interest my middle name is Ernest, given to me as a form of remembrance.

Thank you for your valuable time.

[dundeesown]

Hi and welcome to the Forum.

I am sure you can get the lads records if you write to The Grenadier Guards Regimental Headquarters in London and you can give ebay a go for the badge.

Gary.

[Bardess]

Hi Wagstaff and welcome. The 4th GG War Diary entries for you:

20.09.16

Order to move yesterday was cancelled. The Brigade relieves the 59^th Infantry Brigade tonight and attacks LESBOEUFS on Friday morning; 3^rd Guards Brigade on the LEFT, 1^st Guards Brigade on the RIGHT each with 1 Bn of the 2^nd Guards Brigade in support and remaining 2 Bns of 2^nd Guards Brigade in Divisional reserve.

21.09.16

Bn left CARNOY at 7pm yesterday. Had a very bad relief owing to roads being badly congested by traffic and did not get relief complete till 3am.

24.09.16 TRONES WOOD

The attack was postponed and on Thursday the Bn was relieved by the Welsh Guards, two companies remaining close up in support trenches and two being taken back to TRONES WOOD. On Thursday night Lieut Hon E W TENNANT was killed by a sniper and Captain E G SPENCER CHURCHILL wounded by a shell splinter. 2/Lieut CONSTABLE then took charge of No 4 Coy. On Friday night and Saturday night the Bn was employed in digging a new communication trench and had a good many casualties while doing it.

Orders for attack tomorrow have been received. The 1^st and 3^rd Guards Brigades attack LESBOEUFS, 1^st Guards Brigade on the RIGHT of the 3^rd Guards Brigade, the 2^nd Bn Scots Guards attack on the RIGHT and 4^th Bn Grenadier Guards on the LEFT, Scots Guards directing. The Bn has by far the hardest job as we have two lines of German Trenches to cross before reaching our 1^st Objective, then there is to be a pause for reforming and at a given time the attack on the 2^nd Objective will commence.

The 2^nd Objective being taken, the two Bns will consolidate on that line and the 1^st Bn Grenadiers will pass through and attack the 3^rd Objective, which is high ground to the NE of LESBOEUFS.

The Bn will attack in 2 lines of 2 Companies each. No 4 and No 2 in the 1^st line [No 4 on the RIGHT]. Nos 1 and 3 in the 2^nd line [No 1 on the RIGHT]. The Bn moves to its battle position tonight, taking over trenches from the Welsh Guards who are in Brigade Reserve.

25.09.16

Monday 11pm. The Bn took over its battle position last night. 2/Lieut MAINE hit in the foot. A lot of shelling and bombing. The artillery bombarded the two lines in front of the Bn from 10am to 12 noon but Captain BRITTEN, in a message which reached Bn HQ at 12:20pm, reported that the fire was weak and inaccurate. At 12:35pm the line advanced to the attack preceded by a creeping barrage 150 yards in advance which moved at the rate of 50 yards a minute and a stationary barrage on the 2^nd Objective. The Bn was met by a terrific machine and rifle fire which caused very heavy casualties but failed to stop them. The two LEFT Coys got into the German trench and killed every man there, numbering from 100 to 150; the two RIGHT Coys who had not met with such heavy opposition passed right on to the 1^st Objective, where later they were joined by the remnants of the two LEFT Coys. At 1:35pm the attack on the 2^nd Objective commenced; the Brigade on our LEFT had failed to reach the 1^st Objective and our LEFT was totally in the air. Consequently the RIGHT of the attack got forward and attained the 2^nd Objective while the LEFT only partially got forward. Each unit then dug itself in facing the nearest enemy. At 2:35pm the 1^st Bn Grenadiers, who had gradually been closed up on the leading line, passed through and attacked the 3^rd Objective. As the LEFT flank was totally exposed the result was exactly the same; the RIGHT got forward and attained its Objective; the LEFT was echeloned back and dug in. The Welsh Guards now moved up and filled up gaps forming a continuous line facing NORTH and NORTH EAST and gradually all units became linked up. 1^st Bn Grenadiers on the RIGHT, on the 3^rd Objective facing EAST, 2^nd Bn Scots Guards in the Centre facing EAST AND NORTH EAST and Welsh Guards and 4^th Bn Grenadier Guards on the LEFT facing NORTH. The enemy made several half-hearted counter attacks which were easily repulsed. The 1^st Guards Brigade got into and through LESBOEUFS and were in touch with the 1^st Bn.

The officer casualties, all of which occurred in the 1^st attack are:

Killed: Captain GOSCHEN

Captain STEWART

Lieut PAYNE GALLWEY

2/Lieut FLOWER

Lieut JOICEY CECIL

2/Lieut CONSTABLE

Wounded: Captain BRITTEN

2/Lieut ELLICE

The only officers who took part in the fight and are unwounded are 2/Lieut KEITH, 2/Lieut SELBY LOWNDES and Lieut FARQUHAR.

[dundeesown]

His medal card has Wagstaffe with the e.

Gary

[IanA]

How did you try to obtain his service record? I ask because records of the guards are not held with the rest but at Wellington Barracks where they will provide you with copies for a fee. (I even got some original documents from them).

[wagstaff]

First of all, may I say a sincere thank you to you all for the information and advice you have passed on, which I will certainly act on. I think I can safely assume that my relative lost his life during the attack on Lesboeufs on 25 September 1916. As such, I looked for his name amongst those buried in Guard's cemeteries close to Lesboeufs without success. I do know his name is on the Thiepval memorial. Is it military etiquette that a dedication can only appear in one place? With regard to where I first started my search for information, it was via the local census for that period. I did find out more details by searching through local newspapers which had been transferred onto microfilm. The details I found were as follows: "Mr John Wagstaff, of 22, Clensmore-street, is awaiting anxiously news of his youngest son, Private Ernest Wagstaff, of the Grenadier Guards, reported missing since Sept. 25th. The failure to get details of his whereabouts is causing much anxiety to all relatives. Private Wagstaff is twenty-five years of age and before enlistment he was employed at Tomlinson & Adams. Private Wagstaff went out to France on January 14th, 1915. He was wounded at La Bassee on February 7th, 1915, sent to the Longton General Hospital, from there to a convalescent home at Pangbourne, and went out to France again on October 15th, 1915. He has been in the thick of the fighting since that date. Mr. J. E Wagstaff, 33, Hurcott-road, or Mr. W. Wagstaff, 43, Hurcott-road, would be glad to hear any news from his comrades.". What struck me was how that harrowing scenario would have been played out in tens of thousands of homes worldwide. Once again, many thanks on behalf of my wife, my family (including Ernest) and me .

[IanA]

Wagstaff, if his name is on the Thiepval Memorial then you will not find your man listed in any CWGC cemetery. He has no known grave. He may, of course, be buried in one of the cemeteries near to Lesboeufs beneath a stone saying: "Known unto God".

[wagstaff]

Out of courtesy, I thought it only right to let those of you who have helped with welcome information how our tour of the Western Front went.

It has to be said that in this case, seeing is unbelieving. Nothing can properly prepare you for the enormity of it all. Prior to this I thought my grasp of events was pretty good. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The barrage of casualty figures alone was mind-numbing. The battlefields hiding beneath a cloak of greenery couldn’t disguise the shattered topography, seemingly ripped as if under by the devil’s plough. I’ve read books relating to the conflict and seen filmed footage but to have followed, so to speak, in others’ footsteps puts things into an entirely different light. I do know for a fact that when Remembrance Day service comes around that my understanding, respect and admiration will be greatly enhanced.

Going back to the reason for our sojourn, we were fortunate enough to be able to pay our respects to my late uncle and the many others who fell. A bonus was had in that our tour guide, Vic, was kind enough to make a slight detour enabling us to see the battle site near Lesbouefs. As with many such sites, the approach to Lesbouefs was up an exposed slight incline, giving the defenders a clear line of fire. Standing next to a Grenadier Guards memorial, facing the village on a road which would have been roughly the centre of attack, was indeed a most humbling and moving experience. Later that same day we visited the Thiepval memorial and I will freely admit that when I placed my hand on his inscription I did shed tears. I don’t know if there is a ‘hereafter’, however tenuous or even imagined that link maybe. I feel that I now have a positive link with my Uncle Ernie and maybe, ,just maybe, he knows that.

Incidentally, at the Thiepval memorial, the proprietors are asking for photographs (either in or out of uniform) from relatives of those named there so that they can be placed on the memorial’s inner wall of remembrance. Their email address is pam_ken.linge at btinternet.com

One last snippet we gained from a fellow traveller was that Ernie would have been entitled to the medals the 1914/15 star and the usual BW and V ones. I doubt if such awards would be in replica form unless of course one of you worthies know otherwise. She also confirmed that some service records have been lost; however, I intend to make my own enquiries just to confirm that.

Again, our sincere thanks to you all.