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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Paving stones to commemorate VC holders


Kate Wills

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I have to agree with Dave I thought the aim of the centenary was to remember all who served. However, the suggestion of stamps would solve a lot of problems - vandalism, maintenance and locations of the stones

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Agree - Is Fred Greaves VC braver than his brother who won 3 MC's and a DSO in the last months of the war. Fred would think not. 'Perhaps it is better that all those places are forgot. And we thank God that we got away safe and are able to pray for those, our Friends and Mates, who never returned' (Fred Greaves)

Steve M

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Hi

I presume by 'casualties' you mean those that died not those that were 'just' wounded and survived. I always thought those that 'died' were already 'remembered' on War Memorials, in churches and in some places of work (eg. Liverpool Street), some on more than one. There have been worries that local councils are failing to look after those type of memorials and I don't quite see the point of the 'poppy plaque', as many of their original homes of these 'individuals' would now have gone through by-passes, shopping centres being built, not to mention the 'slum clearances' post WW2. Would it not be better for 'local councils' to spend any money for this project on the memorials to these men that already exist rather than produce a 'new' memorial which some future council members will decide not to look after!

Mike

Our small town has a war memorial, which was completely renovated a couple of years ago and is now in very good condition. However, it is in the middle of what has become a busy roundabout, so anyone wanting to read the names takes their life in their hands. Although the town has grown, most of the pre-1914 housing still exists. From the research I have done on school casualties, all but two of their home addresses are still there (two were lost in road widening) with several being shops in the town centre. It might not work in all places, but for our town, seeing a series of plaques dotted across a relatively small area would certainly highlight how much of an impact the war had.

Edit: According to Victoriacross.org.uk there were 628 VC's awarded in the First World War. That would make quite a stamp collection!

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628? Well that averages out to a V.C. being awarded every 2 and a half days of the war.

It seems a lot when put that way, but there were many a million involved.

Derek.

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This initiative over covers covers UK and RoI - a mere 483 individuals.

Accepted this is still a high number but a stamp, plaque or some other form of commeration is more likely to survive and provide a lasting memory in these times of austerity, how long would it be before the paving stones fell in to disrepair or become eyesores?

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This initiative over covers covers UK and RoI - a mere 483 individuals.

Accepted this is still a high number but a stamp, plaque or some other form of commeration is more likely to survive and provide a lasting memory in these times of austerity, how long would it be before the paving stones fell in to disrepair or become eyesores?

But how soon before the building on which a plaque is placed becomes due for re-development/demolition? Six of one half a dozen of the other.

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Sadly I do not feel that this will work , in the short term it will give the local big wigs photo op and such like .

When I return to the UK and visit my old stamping ground of East London many of the memorials are either missing or vandalised , and one of these is a relatively new memorial only 20 years old ,also the school I went to had a memorial book for the Great War which was on display in the 1960s along side one of the Boy Cornwall pictures they are both now gone and no amount of letters or phone calls have even had a response .

In Chatham near where lived for a while there is a memorial for the Boer War naval gun crews ,it's completely overgrown and has been forgotten for many years

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I don't think I'll be entering the design competition, but at least the link clarifies that the paving stone will be given to councils in areas where the VC recipient was born. It also specifies a size (600mm squared) but not the material. One wonders how a QR code can be incorporated, and how long it will work when exposed to dirt, chewing gum and fag ends. I suspect some sort of resin product will be used.

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I don't think I'll be entering the design competition, but at least the link clarifies that the paving stone will be given to councils in areas where the VC recipient was born. It also specifies a size (600mm squared) but not the material. One wonders how a QR code can be incorporated, and how long it will work when exposed to dirt, chewing gum and fag ends. I suspect some sort of resin product will be used.

I think you mean "600 mm square".(ie 600 mm by 600 mm). The way people read units of area today (incorrectly in my opinion but adopted even by some teachers of the more newly minted variety) as "cm squared" (cm2) or "mm squared" (mm2) would mean that a flagstone of "600 mm squared" would, if actually a square, measure about 24.5 mm by 24.5 mm (about a square inch in old-speak or "one inch squared" in new-speak). Maybe this is the way to combine the flagstone idea with the postage stamp idea.

I take off the maths teacher hat and return to dormancy.

Ian

PS I don't have a problem with notation mm2 but just the way it is said out loud.

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There may be a wailing, gnashing of teeth and hot debate in the many small towns that have been gobbled up by boundary changes into larger Met. Boroughs. Will the paving stone be in the true place of birth.

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I think you mean "600 mm square".(ie 600 mm by 600 mm). The way people read units of area today (incorrectly in my opinion but adopted even by some teachers of the more newly minted variety) as "cm squared" (cm2) or "mm squared" (mm2) would mean that a flagstone of "600 mm squared" would, if actually a square, measure about 24.5 mm by 24.5 mm (about a square inch in old-speak or "one inch squared" in new-speak). Maybe this is the way to combine the flagstone idea with the postage stamp idea.

I take off the maths teacher hat and return to dormancy.

Ian

PS I don't have a problem with notation mm2 but just the way it is said out loud.

I think I am more confused than before (if this is possible). Are we talking about

a] a rectangle of area 600 square mm (24.494897427831782)

b] a square of area 600 square mm (a special case of a])

c] a square that has 600 mm sides (ie an area of 360,000 square mm)

d] a rectangle of area 360,000 mm (6002)

e] none of the above ?

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My guess is that the intention is Option C

As Dave wrote it (or quoted it), I would think that (in today's common, though in my opinion, incorrect usage) someone was telling me that an area was 600 mm2 (ie 600 square mm). For the last 25 to 30 years students seem to have read/said 5 mm2 (for example) as "5 mm squared" rather than "5 square mm"; some will then happily go on to say that the area is therefore 25 mm. (ie that 5 mm2 is the same as 25 mm :( ) so being incorrect with both numbers and units.

However, this is just nit-picking on my part. We are heading for square flagstones measuring about 2 feet by 2 feet; that's about 24 inches by 24 inches or approximately 576 in2 or 576 square inches.

Perhaps this should be in Skindles. I won't go into matter of the square root of 600 being irrational; that would be absurd.

Ian

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I can understand the use of the 'town where he was born' criteria. That said, as far as I know, William Fuller VC, lived in Swansea from at least 1911 until his death in 1974. He is buried in a Swansea cemetery. He is regarded as a 'Swansea VC' by local people who remember such things (I suspect many don't). But he was born in Laugharne which is not Swansea. I suspect there will be controversy in the local press...

To make matters worse 'Swansea's other VC' (George Prowse) was also born outside the town.

Bernard

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I can understand the use of the 'town where he was born' criteria. That said, as far as I know, William Fuller VC, lived in Swansea from at least 1911 until his death in 1974. He is buried in a Swansea cemetery. He is regarded as a 'Swansea VC' by local people who remember such things (I suspect many don't). But he was born in Laugharne which is not Swansea. I suspect there will be controversy in the local press...

To make matters worse 'Swansea's other VC' (George Prowse) was also born outside the town.

Bernard

With boundary changes over the years etc one can anticipate not a few issues like this. And what about "Imperial" VCs (ie men born in the UK who had emigrated when young and won their medal with a Commonwealth force)? There must be some of these.

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Probably one of the easier ones as he spent most of his life at Glassonby which would seem the obvious place for a stone but there must be men who emigrated with their families when mere toddlers -born in a British location but spent most of their life somewhere else - where should their stone be located?

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Looking at the 5 spreadsheets (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic) which are part of the UK Government's press release I have found at least two men born in Scotland who were awarded the Victoria Cross while serving with the Canadian's.

Of concern is the number of "home towns" which are not the correct birthplace.

We even have one home town in the wrong county.

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"A total of 28 will be unveiled next year to commemorate medals awarded in 1914 and others will be laid in every year up to 2018."

So just VCs won in 1914-1918 period, clearly.

JAmes

I'm still trying to work this out - the numbers infer that the first 28 will be for awards announced in 1914.

Those who were awarded their medal for actions in late 1914 will be in the 1915 batch?

What happens to awards announced in 1919?????????

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Ken, I assume they will use the dates of the actions, rather than dates of announcements or presentations or any other 'random' date. That way they will all fit nicely in with that years' commemorations (i.e. Gallipoli VCs during 1915 when all the TV programmes are on Gallipoli).

I'm guessing, of course, but that would seem sensible... (famous last words!)

James

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I hope there might be a few TV programmes on Neuve Chapelle, Aubers, Second Ypres and Loos during 1915 (and possibly the Dogger Bank engagement) as well as Gallipoli!

It seems that the Government is realising that something must be done for those born outside Britain, including Empire Forces https://www.gov.uk/government/news/commemoration-of-commonwealth-victoria-cross

Ian

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I hope there might be a few TV programmes on Neuve Chapelle, Aubers, Second Ypres and Loos during 1915 (and possibly the Dogger Bank engagement) as well as Gallipoli!

It seems that the Government is realising that something must be done for those born outside Britain, including Empire Forces https://www.gov.uk/government/news/commemoration-of-commonwealth-victoria-cross

Ian

Good to read and fair enough
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It becomes increasingly apparent that this project was never thought through properly and evidently never consulted about in any circles that could/would have raised the sort of issues and problems that have been aired here. Surely the only way to make it work is to create a flagstone for every VC awarded during the Great War and concentrate them all in one place .... for the sake of argument, along Victoria Street between Victoria Station, where the Unknown Warrior arrived in London and Westminster Abbey, where he is buried, having been borne there on the shoulders of a bearer party of VC winners. A sort of medal roll in stone. Replica/duplicate slabs could then be supplied at cost to locations around the country (and indeed the world) that satisfy a suitably expert committee of their claim to an association with the VC winner concerned .... thus allowing for multiple claims, by birthplaces, places of education, places of residence, etc.

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