Hermann Stern, Leicht Verwundet, VL 3 Juni 1918

[ph0ebus]

Hello, all!

So, it would appear that my grandfather had another brother serve in with the Prussians in the Great War. I stumbled across his VL entry (Issue 1931, page 24012) while researching my grandfather. The VL entry can be viewed here:

http://java.genealogy.net/eingabe-verlustlisten/search/show/5181700

I have some rudimentary understanding of how to read VLs but this one is one of the latest ones I have read and it is organized very differently than what I am used to. For example, this list is not organized by unit, does not give his rank, and I am presuming the date given refers to his date of birth rather than his date of being lightly wounded? I am interpreting this as a catch-all that is organized just by last mane and that his date of wounding could be any time, but I am curious to know if the experts know if we could narrow down a range of dates when he might have been wounded (even broadly) based on what VL he appeared in and whether this entry might hint at another appearance or not?

If this is his one and only VL entry I am assuming that this is pretty much the end of the line, research-wise...

-Daniel

[ph0ebus]

This morning I began to wonder if this photo, which was in with my grandfather's Great War photos and postcards, isn't a picture of Hermann?

It is not labeled on the back, so perhaps we'll never know.

Daniel

[ph0ebus]

Incidentally, I there is another thread on Hermann in Skindles, largely because I did not know back then that he had a Great War connection:

http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=161903

-Daniel

[ph0ebus]

Sorry to have noticed that my other thread on Hermann in regards to his death in the railway accident at Kreiensen in 1923 appears to have been wholly deleted at some point in the recent past. I wish I had gotten some sort of warning!

-Daniel

[ph0ebus]

Well, well, well! Look what I just found!

http://www.fuldaerzeitung.de/vollbild/artikel/758099/e-beilagen+buchenblaetter/buchenblatter-17-2013

[bob lembke]

Daniel;

I'm back in the trenches again, so to speak.

Just looked at the photo that you expect might be Hermann, which has little information. I have studied WW I

a great deal, but have really not focused on uniform details. But I know a bit, and I just compared the photo

with a couple of the few that I have of my father from this period.

First of all, the lower cockade on the cap, which should be the kingdom, not the cockade of the German Empire,

does seem to be the Prussian cockade. (The picture might be from a long-lost cousin in the Bavarian Army.) As

my father was in the Prussian Guard, his cockade should be the real thing. The colors should be black and white,

the Prussian national colors.)

But, secondly, isn't the collar decoration, which I think was called Lintnzen, (sp?) one reserved for the Prussian

Guard, and perhaps a very few other formations? Also, the epaulettes seem quite light, although the orthochromatic

film almost certainly used, being broadly insensitive to some spectra, sometimes plays havoc with some colors.

I am assuming that he is a private, as I see no badge of rank, and the uniform seems to be of the grade usually

worn by EM/ORs. The color of thew epaulettes might lead to the branch of service. Conveniently, my father was a Pionier,

who wore black epaulettes, usually standing out in a picture.

EM/ORs did have the billed cap, but were not (if privates) allowed to wear them at the front. I don't know the

specific regulations about that. My father seemed to wear the un-billed Muetze at home as well, to go by the few (one?)

picture I have of him in uniform and at home.

There are people about the Forum who know 50 times as much as I do about uniforms and decorations, but I think I have

pointed out the few clues you can take from the plain uniform. But the Lintzen might be an interesting lead.

[ph0ebus]

Daniel;

I'm back in the trenches again, so to speak.

Just looked at the photo that you expect might be Hermann, which has little information. I have studied WW I

a great deal, but have really not focused on uniform details. But I know a bit, and I just compared the photo

with a couple of the few that I have of my father from this period.

First of all, the lower cockade on the cap, which should be the kingdom, not the cockade of the German Empire,

does seem to be the Prussian cockade. (The picture might be from a long-lost cousin in the Bavarian Army.) As

my father was in the Prussian Guard, his cockade should be the real thing. The colors should be black and white,

the Prussian national colors.)

But, secondly, isn't the collar decoration, which I think was called Lintnzen, (sp?) one reserved for the Prussian

Guard, and perhaps a very few other formations? Also, the epaulettes seem quite light, although the orthochromatic

film almost certainly used, being broadly insensitive to some spectra, sometimes plays havoc with some colors.

I am assuming that he is a private, as I see no badge of rank, and the uniform seems to be of the grade usually

worn by EM/ORs. The color of thew epaulettes might lead to the branch of service. Conveniently, my father was a Pionier,

who wore black epaulettes, usually standing out in a picture.

EM/ORs did have the billed cap, but were not (if privates) allowed to wear them at the front. I don't know the

specific regulations about that. My father seemed to wear the un-billed Muetze at home as well, to go by the few (one?)

picture I have of him in uniform and at home.

There are people about the Forum who know 50 times as much as I do about uniforms and decorations, but I think I have

pointed out the few clues you can take from the plain uniform. But the Lintzen might be an interesting lead.

Hello Bob,

Welcome back! I was away from the forum a bit recently as of late...life getting in the way and all that.

That said, now that I have the new photo of Hermann, I am pretty confident the chap in the photo with the litzen is not him. Their faces are just too different. He must be either family or a close friend of my grandfather's though for him to have held onto the photo with his important documents. It very well may end up remaining a mystery or maybe this chap will pop up in another labeled photo one day and we will have a positive ID.

Interestingly, in the newsletter I linked to above, another fellow pictured there is also a relative, Arnold Sichel, whom I previously did not know about. I have not made any connections to the other fellows pictured but then again I just did a preliminary check via Geni.

Right now I am working on some of my horrible Google translations of the relevant text to see what pearls of wisdom I can glean from this new resource.

Hope spring in your neck of the woods is as pleasant as it is (now) here in New York!

Best wishes,

Daniel

[fritz]

Well, well, well! Look what I just found!

http://www.fuldaerzeitung.de/vollbild/artikel/758099/e-beilagen+buchenblaetter/buchenblatter-17-2013

Bingo. - Congratulations, Daniel.

[AliceF]

Indeed, very interesting article.
Christine

[ph0ebus]

Thank you both!

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

As to the original question, I did not see where you received an answer. The lists at this date were simply in alphabetical order, date of birth and no units. The date of injury could be from 2 to 8 weeks earlier. There is no standard as to when a man was listed following his injury.

Ralph

[bob lembke]

Daniel;

Do keep the Lintzen in mind (that spelling might have a 85% probability of being correct) if you

are researching the other photo. Again, I do not know much of the regulations about uniforms, but

in the two photos I have of my father at the front, one certainly late 1916 at Verdun, one undated

but probably about the same time, he is wearing the Lintzen. He was then badly wounded at Verdun

December 28, 1916, all of 1917 in and out of hospitals, and then, from his Militaerpass, was rated

"fit for combat, but not flamethrowers", and was transferred to the flamethrower training unit

outside of Berlin. In a picture of him seemingly from that period He is wearing a uniform without

the Lintzen. He was chafing to get back into combat, it seems, and thru some trick he got back

to the front, in another company, where he managed to get wounded twice more in about one month,

the last time blinded with his entire Trupp in no-man's-land during a flame atteck, although he

quickly regained his sight.

At any rate, that "shaggy dog story", hopefully interesting, shows that when a soldier was not in

the Guard he could not wear the Lintzen, even when serving in a unit serving as a training depot

for a Guards formation. On the other hand, I have seen any number of pictures of officers in one

formation or another wearing the Lintzen or other special uniform detail from some presdigous unit

or another that he had long since left. Perhaps they still, in some fashion, still were a member of

the fraternity of the officers of that regiment. Or maybe they were allowed to wear that uniform

detail after actually leaving that unit.

As usual, I write too much. But, again, if you are researching that fellow, he will have be a

member of the Guards at the time the photo was taken, assuming that he is a EM/OR at the time of

the photo.

[ph0ebus]

As to the original question, I did not see where you received an answer. The lists at this date were simply in alphabetical order, date of birth and no units. The date of injury could be from 2 to 8 weeks earlier. There is no standard as to when a man was listed following his injury.

Ralph

As always, thank you Ralph!

[trajan]

... But, again, if you are researching that fellow, he will have be a member of the Guards at the time the photo was taken ...

Hi Bob,

Good to see you back on GWF!

The problem with the litzen is that while they are essentially exclusively for Guard units in the Prussian army (of which there were 18 or so units, including the Garde Train-Abteilung but excluding cavalry), there were also another 10 or so non-Prussian units that had them, so about 30 possibilities in all! BUT, the real bu**er with Daniel's photograph is not being able to see the lower cockade properly or the epaulettes - are they white or similar or is that a white or similar piping?

Julian

[ph0ebus]

Hi all,

I want to confirm that my understanding of some of the GW-related text in Hermann's biography is correct. The original sentence:

Auch Hermann Stern verließ am 11. Mai 1917 die Oberrealschule und musste danach in der “Vaterl. Hilfdienst” eingetreten.

My horrid machine translation (slightly massaged by me for readability):

On May 11, 1917, Hermann Stern left the secondary school and joined the "Vaterl. Help Service ".

In giving the phrase “Vaterl. Hilfdienst” a Google I find a reference here:

http://lagrandeguerre.cultureforum.net/t63430-bonnet-troupe-allemande

The machine translation from French suggests this is referring to his joining with 'Auxillary troops'. Would this be referring to something like a Reserve Infanterie Regiment of some type, or something else entirely?

-Daniel

[AliceF]

Hi Daniel,

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_%C3%BCber_den_vaterl%C3%A4ndischen_Hilfsdienst

This source here suggests that men between 17 and 60, who did not serve in the army or worked in the sectors of agriculture/forestry, had to work in arms industry or other similar industries (law from 6th of December 1916).

Christine

Edited 2 May , 2016 by AliceF

[ph0ebus]

Hi Alice,

Very interesting. So I gather this would have been an intermediate step between school and being in the service?

-Daniel

[bob lembke]

Hi, Daniel;

In answer to your question, the Hilfsdienst seems to have been a

service to mobilize the population for the war effort, without a

military side to it. It took men up to 60; at 45 men's military

obligations ended, although some men already in the service might

continue military service under some conditions. Reading the German

Wikipedia article Christine identified, it didn't seem to have any

military role, only economic mobilization.

In WW I the Germans actually mobilized the economy for the war

effort far more than in WW II; Hitler was afraid of public opinion

and, for example, made far less use of women in the war economy than

was done in WW I, even, absurdly, importing over a million domestic

servants to help German women with their household chores.

[ph0ebus]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the additional information. This organization was a new one for me and I am eager to learn as much as I can about it.

I just found when digging deeper into it this photo which recently sold on eBay:

There was also a medal that apparently was sometimes awarded for one's work with this organization, which is being called the Merit Cross for War Aid:

The eBay listing which offered this for sale had the following details given about it:

Original German FÜR KRIEGS-HILFSDIENST Medal (Merit Cross for War Aid)

The Merit Cross for War Aid (German: Verdienstkreuz für Kriegshilfe) was a war decoration of Prussia awarded during World War I. Instituted 5 December 1916, the cross was awarded for patriotic war aid service, without regard to status or rank.
The medal is in the shape of a Maltese cross, typically found made of blackened Kriegsmetall alloy. The obverse of the cross bears a circular central medallion with the crowned cipher of King Wilhelm II. On the reverse the central medallion is inscribed FÜR KRIEGS-HILFSDIENST (For War Aid Merit) above an oak wreath. To the upper arm is attached a loop for suspension from its ribbon.[3]

From:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-GERMAN-WW1-MEDAL-FUR-KRIEGS-HILFSDIENST-Merit-Cross-for-War-Aid-/331503346938?hash=item4d2f23a4fa:g:nHkAAOSwBLlVAaqv

-Daniel

[bob lembke]

Daniel;

The men in the picture seem to be members of a German fraternity,

wearing a fraternity cap (definitely not a German military cap) and

fraternity style clothes, doing some sort of messy agricultural/

food processing work, wearing smocks over their good clothes to

protect the clothing. As the date is "February-April 1917", it is a

period, not a real date, perhaps a work assignment. The fraternities

seemed to stick together after university; my family oral history

states that my father's sister's husband rented a castle in eastern

Germany after WW I to house members of his university fraternity.

It does raise the question of what were those healthy-looking

young men doing out of uniform in 1917.

As I have been away from reading Suetterlin for several years,

and am too lazy to go to another floor to fish out a dictionary,

much of the inscription does not mean much to me at first glance;

I mean the middle line, the first and third lines are obvious but

doesn't convey much. The metal probably provided a fig leaf for

healthy young men not in uniform. Social cohesion was fraying as

the war went on.

[AliceF]

I read to the left: Rudolf Simons.

To the right: Vaterländ. Hilfsdienst – Cleve [?] -
Landwirtschaftsschüler am Rübenschneiden.

Pupils of the agricultural school cutting sugar beets.

Cleve is probably a place name (Kleve?).

Christine

[fritz]

Hello Daniel,

Kleve (Cleve: the old spelling) is a town on the Dutch border near the River Rhine.

In 1917 the age group of 1898 was forced to join the army. I am sure these boys will be soldiers very soon.

Kind regards

Fritz

[ph0ebus]

Hello all,

 

I was fortunate to make friends with a lovely woman who has access to the files in the archives at Fulda and she was able to locate service records for Hermann!  I will be posting some snippets shortly in the hopes you can help me make some sense of them.

 

-Daniel

[ph0ebus]

Firstly, I finally know what unit he was in!

 

 

Next, his service history, for what it is worth.  Can anyone make out what it says?

 

 

[ph0ebus]

Lastly, details about when he was wounded, as came to light in the VL entry in the OP.
 

I read this as a machine gun shot to the leg below the knee, on the 25th of March (1917)...the narrative to the right I cannot comprehend.  Any ideas?