Your Country Needs You

[MichaelBully]

Impressed with how much information has now appeared on this thread. Will treat myself to James' and Martyn's books and wishing you both success.

James, would like to attend NAM event but same day as Siegfried Sassoon Fellowship AGM and Conference in Cardiff so will be unable to attend.

Regards

Michael Bully

[JamesMSTaylor]

Thank you for welcoming me to the forum Martyn. I'll address your points in turn if that's ok.

Excellent that you are writing a follow up book with a colleague on a shared subject and I look foward to buying a copy.

I left the National Maritime Museum many years ago now and have been freelance ever since. Now in fact a mature student as you have been. I have written books for the love of it and (I am sure you recognise this fact) when you factor in the time, resources, blood, sweat and tears, not to mention having to pay forsome extra illustrations to go into a publication I am not conscious of having made any significant profit from any book I have written.

You mention "a massive publicity machine". Well to be truthful I wish that was true. My current book is published by a small but exceedingly author friendly, hands-on Scottish independent company called Saraband. After an introduction to The Telegraph from my editor I spoke to the journalist. I am sure you are aware that you have no control over what a particular journalist will select as an attention grabbing headline or even in the selection of which image(s) were to be used. To save money stock image(s) were used. So the image illustrated in The Telegraph was absolutely not what I have been referring to and the first time I saw it was when the piece went online. I was hoping to seeimages such as the BRITONS poster, the David Allen & Sons variant and Leete's original artwork.

By the time the Daily Mail picked up on the story the headline and content shifted dramatically to make claims about the posters which I have never made.

We produced a straight forward press pack for papers based around a story that I do take full responsibility for and that focused on as far as I can see the absence of any official recruiting poster during WWI with mass appeal that combined Leete's Lord Kitchener cartoon and the slogan 'Your Country Needs You'. any clues as to its whereabouts? Today when you talk to people about WWI / recruitment and posters many people will recall a finger pointing Leete design and the aforementioned slogan. Why it has such a remarkable reputation today and why this particularposter managed to span the last century - well there is a lot of new material in the book which hopefully does offer an explanation.

Rest assured I am massive fan of Leete and a champion of black and white commercial artists of the era notably those who were members of the London Sketch Club and have no intention to demean the man I have come to admire.

I have no doubt that we have lots to chat about.please come back if there is something not fully explained, this is most likely explained by the later hour of the night and the fact that I have read every single response to the newspapers forums over the weekend and can assure you that it has been draining experience and one that I would not willingly go through again.

Kind regards

James

.

[johnboy]

I have searched many thousands of pics looking for drill halls, recruiting offices and High streets, Result----zilch. I started looking at High Streets and towns hoping to find a recruiting office---again nothing with the poster. Even pics of Town Halls and Post Offices have yielded none.

Taken from Macmasters university library

Fifty-four million copies of some two hundred different posters were produced and distributed by the PRC over the course of the war. Millions more were produced by other wartime (often private) organizations. As one Londoner observed in January 1915: Posters appealing to recruits are to be seen on every hoarding, in most shop windows, in omnibuses, tramcars, and commercial vans. The great base of Nelsons pillar is covered with them.

Someone is telling porkies. I cannot believe that all these posters were produced, that they were on every hoarding and in shop windows etc , yet there seem to be none in any pictures of recruiting offices or general high street views of the time.

[JamesMSTaylor]

Hi Sergeant-Major, .

Its a very important discovery. Many of us have been looking (many a lot longer than me) for just such an image. I think that there was some official assistance in posting the BRITONS posters alongside official posters as shown here in this tidy arrangement. Nine are recorded PRC posters and BRITONS is the odd one out as a private design.

Well done for tracking it down. I tried several times to obtain material from the NRM but failed.

Would love that information.

Kind regards

James

[funfly]

James, thanks for your comments, perhaps you were misquoted (?):

Your Country Needs YOU: the poster that never was

Saraband will soon be releasing a new book that explodes the popular myths surrounding the famous World War I recruitment poster featuring Lord Kitchener with pointing finger, exhorting you to 'do your bit'.

Your Country Needs You by James Taylor argues that although the Lord Kitchener image is much loved and indisputably a design classic, an official recruitment poster of the image never even existed!

'Just like many other people, I’m fascinated by the simple striking image of Lord Kitchener,' says Taylor. 'With his steely stare, accusing finger and the memorable slogan "Your Country Needs YOU", it is a poster that we all feel we know so well. It’s widely believed to have been the most popular design of World War I and one that was instrumental in recruiting millions of men for active service.

'However, the truth is: that simply wasn’t the case. It’s an urban myth.

johnboy. It seems most likely that in 1914 there were a lot of posters around telling young men to enlist. The poster campaign by the PRC was indeed massive.

Hi Sergeant-Major, .

do you mean me?

[johnboy]

johnboy. It seems most likely that in 1914 there were a lot of posters around telling young men to enlist. The poster campaign by the PRC was indeed massive.

My point is, why are there no pics of the time showing them? There is a picture of Scotland yard recruiting office showing men queuing in the rain but no posters in sight.

I am not only talking about your poster but any others as well.

[funfly]

Officially published poster

Dated November 1914

Leete image of Kitchener with pointing finger

Words "Your Country Needs You"

Printed with a reference to London Opinion

Original in IWM

Edited 4 August , 2013 by funfly

[JamesMSTaylor]

Hello Funfly

I illustrate and discuss this poster in detail in my book. It's a privately printed and not an official poster produced by David Allen & Sons following London Opinion's privately produced poster. When I say official it's probably my fault for not explaining fully. What I mean is that it was not officially produced by the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee the official government organisation tasked to do amongst others things produce recruitment posters. Each of their posters carries a number from 1 to 164. There is no number on this poster. In fact the PRC minutes reveal which official posters were popular the top 13 poster designs and Leete does not appear any where.

I hope this helps.

James

[funfly]

James,

On Saturday 2nd. August the article in Wikipedia under 'Lord Kitchener Wants You' was changed by the addition of (wrongly^[3]) as follows:

The poster has often (wrongly^[3]) been seen as a driving force helping to bring millions of men into the Army.

[3] refers to "Taylor>[[Daily Telegraph]], 2 August 2013, [http://www.telegraph...er-existed.html 'Your Country Needs You' - The myth about the First World War poster that 'never existed"

Is it ethical to insert publicity material like this into Wikipedia? I assume it is to get better SEO but is this another publicity stunt that you know nothing about?

Edited 4 August , 2013 by funfly

[funfly]

I illustrate and discuss this poster in detail in my book.

Yes, but It is a proven 1914 poster, it has the Leete image of Kitchener with pointing finger with the words "Your Country Needs You". Surely this is exactly the composition of the poster you claim never existed!

Martyn

[funfly]

James,

Perhaps I should explain (at this late hour) that I am not a terrier shaking a rag. I am suggesting that there are two serious matters that require your action:

1. Five national newspapers contained claims from you that you have here stated as misinterpretations of your own press release, however the claims made in the papers were made and will be considered true.

2. Alterations were made in Wikipedia in order to promote your book.

You sound a nice fellow and, as far as I can see, your book is a well researched and interesting read. However the actions you or your representatives have taken over the last few days to obtain publicity does not reflect well and, in my opinion, needs to be addressed.

[JamesMSTaylor]

Morning

Fifty-four million copies of some two hundred different posters were produced and distributed by the PRC over the course of the

JohnBoy that MacMaster source is a right pickle rather like my recent newspaper(s) experiences [more to come]. MacMaster has fused together different sources some of which are correct. The official PRC records state the following [written up in the summer of 1916]: "From the start to finish, the Sub-Department has printed and circulated 12,435,500 posters and taxi and tram slips; 450,000 window cards: 5,500,000 pamphlets; 34,125,000 leaflets and 1,750,000 miscellaneous productions. The quantity so produced reached the remarkable aggregrate of 54,260,500 copies" Financial accounts reveal that "The cost of producing these copies was £40,489..."

Martyn apologies about not recognising you name in a posting - being new and late of hour I saw Sergeant-Major as a name and thought that was a new contributor not realising that Funfly / Sergeant-Major and Martyn were all one and the same.

To address other muddles. I have not altered or have knowledge of anyone who has on my behalf, that includes my publisher and their associates, made the changes to the Wiki entry on 'Your Country Needs You' to which you refer.

In terms of national newspapers. I confirm that I spoke only to one - the Daily Telegraph. I have already addressed the lack of author control in terms of a newspaper's creation of an attention grabbing headline and also what image(s) they personally select to support the piece. All other newspapers followed suit with various 'interpretations' and quotations from me that stem from the 'creativity' of the individual writers. Papers have a reputation for placing quotes around things that people have never said.

I do understand the frustration that people have experiencd in terms of some of these resulting misinterpretations and errors- me included! You can see the personal abuse hurled at me in the forums which is certainly not what I expected or relish. Papers will do what papers do to sell papers. I would prefer to deal in a less sensational spin-like sphere however, that said if (and its a big if) this gets people thinking afresh about art and design and the impact of it in the Great War and it challenges assumptions then perhaps this can taken as one positive, albeit as you rightly point out at some expense.

We seem to differ (which is healthy) over the significance and impact of PRC (official) and private posters. I have yet to be persuaded about the impact of the David Allen & Sons private design that you describe as 'a proven poster 1914'. I argue that it had a low impact and was produced in a short print run. The overall creation of this poster may well have been the work of John Hassall - my claim derives from a history of the printing firm David Allen & Sons, who as you know produced both private and official recruitment posters. I think this design is rather overblown and the surrounding flags and excessive text somewhat smother the Kitchener cartoon image that clearly derives from Leete's cartoon. Although you can seen below Kitchener's collar on the poster the words 'Photo from London Opinion' I think it is interesting that Leete's printed signature is not to be found on this poster.

In short it is possible to push out information to the media, but like you with no massive publicity machine behind me, it is not possible to control it. In terms of trying to rectify the press comments I imagine that pushing water up hill would be easier.

It is good that we can debate these points. I am often up in London in libraries and if you are around I would be pleased to meet up for coffee, or something stronger, for a further discussion prior to the NAM event if that suits.

Hope this helps.

James

[redbarchetta]

Martyn,

Looks like the amendment to the Wiki page was done by Andrew Gray, "Wikipedian in residence at the British Library" - presumably he just got a copy of James's book, or heard about it, and updated Wiki accordingly. Don't think there is any conspiracy there, just someone being quick to react!

James (not Taylor!)

[funfly]

The Author James Taylor seems like a nice man and to his credit he has politely answered all the questions we have posed for him here. If, as he claims, the newspaper articles misrepresented what he said in his press releases then we must have a degree of sympathy for him. He has obviously carried out a great deal of research in the preparation of his book and if it contains any inaccuracies then perhaps those of us who have also written research articles should not be the ones to throw stones. His book seems an interesting read and one assumes will not be totally dedicated to proving that the poster never existed, I for one, will buy it.

The responses to his Telegraph article about the poster surprised me. However the whole discussion has added another perspective and one that I might even add to my own book.

It would seem that the Kitchener poster is actually more than an 'icon' is has become a 'sacred cow'. Suggesting publically that it never existed carries the same level of risk as crossing the motorway wearing a blindfold! People who we may assume have themselves never carried our research into the subject, have leaped to its defence; "How dare he say these things", "who does he think he is?" were screamed in the remarks section of the Telegraph.

There is an area of research being carried out at the moment into non physical information that we inherit but where the information is not carried in the genetic double coils but in some other 'stuff' that is passed on parent to child. (A lot of the research seems to involve rats licking each other but that's another story!).

It does seem now that non physical information can be passed down - our grandmother's emotional experiences can effect our own lives without us being aware of it. I would call this 'emotional furniture'. Maybe this inbuilt emotional furniture can involve things like our poster. Deep in our brains may lie our 'belief' in this poster.

Knowledge learned by us during our lifetimes may be subject to review but it is possible that ingrained information can be reinforced over generations. The thoughts about 'our' poster, correct or otherwise, have been around for a long time so, I suggest, that it may have evolved as almost a fundamental belief within us.

To challenge this ingrained information is more than questioning stuff we have been taught, have been told or have read about - what is being challenged is information buried deep within our system. Thus challenged our initial reaction may be to jump up and down to defend our 'beliefs' and, I suggest, we will do this even in the absence of proof about our own belief and in the face of overwhelming evidence that we are wrong.

[funfly]

To address other muddles. I have not altered or have knowledge of anyone who has on my behalf, that includes my publisher and their associates, made the changes to the Wiki entry on 'Your Country Needs You' to which you refer.

Thanks for that and the post by redbarchetta. Clears that up and removes any question in my mind.

[funfly]

Wiki article now reads;

The poster has often (some claim wrongly^[3]) been seen as a driving force helping to bring millions of men into the Army.^[5]

[GRANVILLE]

Until I recently picking up on this fascinating thread, I had always been under the impression that the Kitchener poster (in any form) was to be regarded as the poster of the war. This is not to take anything away from any of the many others that we all know were in use at the time, but if you wanted to hold up one particular poster image as ‘iconic’ of its time, then it had to be that of Kitchener's pointing hand by Leete. To use current speak; he was the ‘poster-boy’ of the war, and in many ways I suspect he will have been the very first such ‘poster-boy’ in British social history, because nothing quite like this war had ever happened in British history before.

And yet, as has already been attested by several others, including two respected authors on the subject; finding any photographic evidence of the public use of any of the Kitchener poster variations is virtually impossible. Convinced they had to be out there somewhere; I have now trawled my several copies of period histories and have also drawn a blank.

Take for instance the very common: ‘The Standard History of the All-Europe Conflict’ by Wilson & Hammerton. This work was commenced as the war started and ran the course of the war for 13 volumes and, as the publishers state, is profusely illustrated, which it is, literally commencing the work on p2 of Vol 1 with a full page photograph of Kitchener – quite possibly the photo Leete may well have used to sketch his image of the man, and the photograph is titled: ‘THE MAN WHO GETS THINGS DONE’.

In the light of what would now seem to be the case; that his ‘iconic’ poster was apparently ‘everywhere’ but is nowhere to be seen, I’m amazed the words ‘cover-up’ and ‘conspiracy’ have not yet been read somewhere in this on going thread?

For the record, I have also been able to check all 22 volumes of The Times History of the war, convinced that if one of their own reporters could described the Kitchener image as being ‘everywhere’ (see my post #74) then surely their own definitive history on the war would feature some images of the poster either by design or inadvertently in the background of some of the street photos, and yet, they are mysteriously absent as far as I can tell.

Other main works I’ve consulted include: 10 volumes of ‘The War Illustrated’ edited by Hammerton, 6 volumes of ‘ War Pictorial,’ published by The Illustrated London News & Sketch, 6 volumes of ‘The Illustrated War News,’ also by The Illustrated London News & Sketch, ‘World War 1914-1918’ edited by Hammerton, and in none of them can I find any specific reference or photograph featuring the Kitchener poster in any form – because of the sheer size of all of the above works, I accept I could easily have missed something and am prepared to be corrected on this, but on the face of it I’ve drawn a blank which to me, beggars the question of why?

Is it even remotely possible that Kitchener was (presumably by default), thrust into a spot-light that was just too much for some in the higher establishment to cope with? If, for instance, the massive Somme offensives have been a total success, and indeed the war brought to a much speedier conclusion, can you imagine just how much this already hugely popular Lord and Field Marshal turned First Minister of State for War would have become? As Hammerton referred to him in 1914, he was already seen as ‘the man who gets things done,’ one can only imagine his even greater rise in fame had he become to be seen as ‘the man who won the war.’

How unfortunate it was that he should drown when the Hampshire went down with nearly all hands in June 1916. This taken from one particular web-account of Kitchener’s life and death could in my opinion, be a rich source of information for the conspiracy theorists.

“Through the storm the dramatic events were seen from the shore and the Postmistress at Birsay informed Naval HQ in Kirkwall by telegraph. However, in spite of the pleadings of the crew the Stromness Lifeboat was not given clearance to launch and the local people alleged that they were not told of the events so that they could go to the cliffs and help bring the exhausted survivors ashore. Indeed it was even said that they were hindered by the Naval Authorities from assisting in any way and by the time that the sea search got underway all but twelve of the crew were dead.”

Am I alone in even beginning to think along these lines?

David

[funfly]

two respected authors

Mr. Taylor is indeed respected, I don't know who the other one is

I have also been able to check all 22 volumes of The Times History of the war... Other main works I’ve consulted include: 10 volumes of ‘The War Illustrated’ edited by Hammerton, 6 volumes of ‘ War Pictorial,’ published by The Illustrated London News & Sketch, 6 volumes of ‘The Illustrated War News,’ also by The Illustrated London News & Sketch, ‘World War 1914-1918’ edited by Hammerton,

You aught to be the one writing a book, do you plan to? "Conspiracies of the Great War"

[funfly]

I like this idea...

In 1917 the politicians became aware that the power of Lord Kitchener was increasing. An abrasive evangelistic mason (as long as he was in charge), with strong anti feminist views, a bit of a 'Baden Powell' sexually and with very questionable techniques used in the Sudan campaign like chopping peoples heads off and dressing as an arab , could, if not stopped, rise into a position of real influence in the country.

The answer; murder him and make sure his body was never found, then destroy every reference to him including thousands of posters showing his face and any photographs of the poster in place.

A massive cover up that almost succeeded until revealed in an obscure thread in the Great War forum.

I now wait for the knock on the door and the men in black.

[funfly]

I seem to have been promoted from Sergeant-Major to Second Lieutenant so a lot more respect please and I think you all have to salute me now.

[spconnolly007]

Live long and prosper funfly.

[funfly]

Good news indeed.

The only photograph of the Kitchener poster on view in the UK at the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Station.

The National Railway Museum has already provided me with a copy of the photographer's log book showing that this photograph was taken on the 15th. December 1914.

They have now kindly sent me a photograph of the actual plate glass negative that they have. It measures 6.5 x 8.5 inches which is 'full plate' size.

This seems to be to be ample proof that the photograph is genuine.

You've all deserved this, sorry it's not a real one

[spconnolly007]

Well done funfly. Funnily enough a friend of mine presented me with the same bottle earlier today for doing him a favour. I will enjoy a glass tonight on your success.

Regards,

Sean.

[Seany]

From the start this has been an unexpectedly fascinating thread thatbI have enjoyed, it was running a little out of steam and then James turned up and off we went again. I remain amazed at the lack of photo evidence and have now given up searching. Well done to you all highly entertaining

[funfly]

Just had a photo from Dave Rees showing Chester Castle home of the Cheshire Rgt. dated 1915 covered with 'our' poster.

Here you are sir, your Bollinger.