Your Country Needs You

[funfly]

http://www.telegraph...er-existed.html

That article in the Telegraph is a press release from the Taylor book that is being published end of August.

His 'headline' comment that the poster never existed actually refers to any poster with the words "Your Country Needs You" underneath, i.e. a virtual copy of the front page of the London Opinion. Here I suggest that he is splitting hairs in order to get 'a good headline'.

He then goes on to say that the two posters (shown in my post 58) did exist. He then claims that the poster had little influence on recruiting.

He is repeating a claim first made in 1997 by Nicholas Hiley about the use of the Kitchener poster and referred to in my own first book 'Myth & Magic'. As we all, agree that individual posters probably did little on their own to create the mass recruitment as it was obviously the result of pressures from a collection of media. Also no one can ever be precise about one particular poster and its effectiveness.

I just think that the claim, while not actually incorrect when you read the small print, is misleading, publicity seeking and does not credit a magnificent piece of design by Alfred Leete.

However Taylor is one of the big guns in writing and has a massive publicity machine behind this book launch. My own book due out end October and the result of three years research, is small fry compared to this.

Rant over... Martyn

Edited 3 August , 2013 by funfly

[funfly]

Mr. Taylor also says:

"He also looked at several thousand images of street scenes and recruitment offices taken during the war and found no trace of the poster."

Mart

[Seany]

Mr. Taylor also says:

"He also looked at several thousand images of street scenes and recruitment offices taken during the war and found no trace of the poster."

Mart

Join the gang then, they are very elusive, but I think we made that point already

[funfly]

But....

we have two photographs showing it

[James]

"But new research has found that no such poster was actually produced during the war and that the image was never used for official recruitment purposes"

He makes a big play of this ignoring the fact that it was privately produced. His logic being if it wasn't official it simply cannot have been.

[funfly]

What he is actually claiming is that this poster was never used as a recruiting poster in WW1.

...and he's right, as far as I know this is a later rendition. There are no records anywhere that suggest this was a 1914 poster.

However, he is one of the 'big boys' and his publicity machine has good resources. After seeing it in the papers etc. are people now going to think that there never was a Kitchener poster in WW1? It was all made up by the media maybe.

[Seany]

But....

we have two photographs showing it

Oh, I'm with you but you can see how it looks ........ All that hype and only 2 identified photographs

[funfly]

I think the comments under the Telegraph article say more than ever we can

[johnboy]

They seek him here

They seek him there

They seek him every effing where.

Can't manage to get a smiley.

[Seany]

Is it known who the printer was? If so are the records of dates and numbers printed?

[funfly]

Printer of post 81 ? - I can find no records at all.

However I have a good feeling that this was never a poster used in WW1.

As far as K1 and K2 (post 58) we know the printers but no records of numbers. Our dates used are reported dates and not dates from any original records.

[Moonraker]

I've been struggling a little to keep up with this discussion and at first - like some here and some who made comments on the Telegraph article - didn't differentiate between the various posters with the iconic image of Kitchener. As I see it now, Mr Taylor may have over-indulged in puffery to publicise his book, and this comment from the Telegraph website is very appropriate:

This report should be much shorter: Posters with Lord Kitchener pointing were used during the first world war for recruiting purposes but none had the words "YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU" printed below. These words became associated with the image via the cover of a London magazine published in 1914. More details can be found in a book by James Taylor available at all good booksellers.

Is that about right? Incidentally some of the other comments make me thankful for the relatively sensible discussions in our own Forum. And I wonder how many of the more sensible remarks were made by our members?

Moonraker

Later thought: looking again at the Telegraph article, it uses the words "image" and "poster" as if they mean the same thing. I take "image" to denote Kitchener and his finger, irrespective of any or no wording, and "poster" to mean Kitchener, finger and wording. I'm not sure whether this is due to sloppiness by the reporter, or a cunning ploy in the original press release (from the author? or his publisher?) on which, it has been suggested, the article is based.

[Andrew Hesketh]

http://sky1.sky.com/sky1hd-shows/chickens

( )

[funfly]

This book launch is using quite powerful tools; I notice that some Wikipedia entries have been 'edited' (e.g. 'Lord Kitchener Wants You') with content changed to reflect Taylor's theory and with references to his book (it's not even published yet!)

Luckily I am in a position to rectify spurious claims made in Wikipedia. However will have to keep my eyes open, this sort of technique to sell a book is more than I would have expected.

[funfly]

Press release today in;

Independent

Telegraph

Daily Mail

Express

Sterling Times

The Drum

War History Online

[JamesMSTaylor]

Hello, I am James Taylor who wrote the forthcoming Your Country Needs You - The secret History of the Propaganda Poster book and I have meant for a couple of years now to actively post but perhaps this is a good time bearing in mind the press coverage this weekend, and for the very first time in a forum which seems sensible to set the record straight..

I think many of you will know that what a writer says and how it is reported in a newspaper even when a press release is given can vary enormously in terms of truth.

I'm happy to exchange posts. Is it possible I may be mistaken in some regards (hopefully not all) of course this could be so. Why don't we exchange views to find out?

James

[MichaelBully]

What a great thread. I have been fascinated by Lord Kitchener and the part he played in generating mass British support for taking part in the Great War.

But I am getting confused! James - I am looking forward to your book and accept that press releases can get misquoted.

So is your core argument that the iconic Lord Kitchener poster with the pointing finger and 'Your Country Needs You' was rarely or simply not used in 1914 or 1915?

Or that is no record of such a combination of image and context as it were?

My view is that Lord Kitchener could take on the attributes of quite a mythical figure to the generation that followed him and who lived through the Great War.

Regards,

Michael Bully

Hello, I am James Taylor who wrote the forthcoming Your Country Needs You - The secret History of the Propaganda Poster book and I have meant for a couple of years now to actively post but perhaps this is a good time bearing in mind the press coverage this weekend, and for the very first time in a forum which seems sensible to set the record straight..

I think many of you will know that what a writer says and how it is reported in a newspaper even when a press release is given can vary enormously in terms of truth.

I'm happy to exchange posts. Is it possible I may be mistaken in some regards (hopefully not all) of course this could be so. Why don't we exchange views to find out?

James

[JamesMSTaylor]

So is your core argument that the iconic Lord Kitchener poster with the pointing finger and 'Your Country Needs You' was rarely or simply not used in 1914 or 1915?

Or that is no record of such a combination of image and context as it were?

My view is that Lord Kitchener could take on the attributes of quite a mythical figure to the generation that followed him and who lived through the Great War

Hello Michael, thank you for replying.

I think that many people will be surprised to disover that the imperial War Museum only acquired its London Opinion poster in the early 1950s - the one with the heading BRITONS [Kitchener cartoon image ] "Wants You". But in terms of a poster featuring the cartoon of Lord Kitchener with the slogan 'Your Country Needs You' there is only as Martyn and others have posted in previous threads, evidence of the privately produced David Allen and Sons design of November 1914 [iWM collections] featuring a small version of Leete's Kitchener cartoon (interestingly the design is not signed by Leete) and a rather overpowering arrangement of flags and text that tend to overpower the Kitchener cartoon. There is no evidence that I can find that this poster was a popular one. Perhaps only 5,000 ror less of this privately poster were produced.

The PRC official records (written up in the summer of 1916) provide us with a top thirteen list of the most popular official recruitment posters produced and Leete's design does not feature as it is a private design although number one on this list is a poster featuring the head and shoulders of Lord Kitchener and beside him some words from his famous Guildhall Speech. It was Kitchener himself who was popular (a Nelsonic figure) although some detested him too. The PRC records show that 145,000 copies of this poster were prodcued in two sizes were produced.

Leete's artwork of the cartoon of Lord Kitchener that first appeared as the cover for 'London Opinion' magazine on 5 September 1914 was donated by Leete himself to the Imperial War Museum in 1917 and in a letter now in the IWM archives he makes it clear because of the damage to it (notably a significant tear in the upper middle section) that if the museum was not happy with it they could return it. Fortunately they did not althought the original is usually in store. Leete's artwork was mistakenly catalogued as being part of the IWM's poster collection and this is how many of the muddles started in terms of this imagined popular poster with mass appeal. Certainly the slogan 'Your Country Needs You' was used on various posters but as far as I can establish I do not know of a popular official poster that combines the slogan with Leete's Lord Kitchener cartoon. Even the posters on the Ulster / Belfast recruiting tram which are variants have different text and slogans according to my magnifying glass Although this is a fantastic new pictorial find. To me these posters appear to have been cut down and adapted versions of the BRITONS.. version specially created for the Irish market.

London Opinion was a black-and-white weekly magazine that sold more than 270,000 copies of the issue of 5 September 1914 with Leete's cartoon cover. They allegedly produced postcards and also the 'Your Country Needs You' cover was issued on fine art paper to be framed at home for private enjoyment. Although they were not a poster in the official sense. It is I argue the magazine that was a significant means of how Leete's cartoon and slogan 'Your Country Needs You' became known to publishers and printers throughout the British Empire and the world. Some BRITONS posters were sent to various places in the British Empire (source from London Opinion) but records of it being sent or seen in the USA are not known. I have been in lengthy communication with Everett Kinstler, a close friend of James Montgomery Flagg who as you know created the famous Uncle Sam poster design in 1917 (he first produced the image as cover for a magazine in 1916). We feel that Flagg who was a founder member of the Society of Illustrators in New York is more likley to have seen Leete's image in London Opinion. At less than thirty thin pages this magazine was priced a one penny but punched well above its weight in terms of influence and popularity. Flagg, Gibson and other celebrated black and white commercial artists and cartoonist in New York would have been eager to see the work of their European contemporaries and no doubt hotly debated their individual merits. Leete's eye-catching forceful design and that brillian four word slogan would have caught their attention.

Sorry this is long and rambling but hopefully it addresses some of your points.

There are so many internet images that purpot to be a 'Your Country Needs You' poster but are not - most images simply pass off Leete's original artwkork and printed variant of the London Opinion cover as an actual recruitment poster. There is also a newstand poster promoting the London Opinion issue of 5 September 1914 in the Library of Congress (it may have promoted other war issues too) that is often passed off as a mainstream recruiting poster. It's main aim was to encourage people to buy the magazine.

Regards

James

[MichaelBully]

That's great James, thanks for all the information. Particularly interested to read about 'London Opinion' and how said image could have been circulated without being a recruiting poster.

It would be interesting to look at the oral history interviews and see how many veterans and others who lived through the Great War recall having seen said iconic poster several decades later.

I tend to believe that the subconscious mind does make its own associations as it were and Lord Kitchener represented a great deal to a certain generation, but his reputation has not survived.

Also see that you've got are discussing the subject at the National Army Museum on 7th September 2013. Regards, Michael Bully

http://www.nam.ac.uk/whats-on/targeted-talks/your-country-needs-you-british-war-posters

[MichaelBully]

Martyn, don't want to lose sight of the OP and your own book on the subject, hope that you'll keep us updated concerning its progress. Regards, Michael Bully

[Bernard_Lewis]

Over to Funfly, I guess?

Bernard

[funfly]

Hi James and welcome to the forum. As you may know this thread was started three years ago when I was doing a thesis on our friend Kitchener and I subsequently wrote a small booklet on the subject.

Over the past year I and a colleague have been writing a second book on the subject and we welcomed the fact that there was another book coming out at the same time about the iconic (?) poster. Our book is a little different to yours in that we explore the scene surrounding the poster, what gave rise to it, how it was created and what has happened since. Also we don't have access to a massive publicity machine so we are not expecting to retire on the profits.

I have read your book introduction and cannot argue with anything you say - in fact you have unearthed some new information. However what has miffed me is in the current publicity surrounding your book giving a totally misguiding idea that the poster didn't actually exist at all. We both know that it did exist even if there was a variation in the wording and to claim otherwise is doing damage to a very fine piece of graphic design and some very striking text. Lets be honest the press releases and the content of the articles will have come from your publicity machine and I suggest that you therefore have to take some responsibility for the misinformation. I was also surprised how a number of wikipedia articles had been modified last weekend to include links to the newspaper articles and your forthcoming book.

Ever since the Hiley article in 1997 when this same hypothesis was first put forward, we have all agreed that there was a poster showing the pointing hand of Kitchener based on a design by Leete - in fact there were quite a few of these. The fact that they were copied almost immediately by the US and other European countries testifies to the fact that they were very visible. We also all know that the texts "Your Country Needs You" and "Britons Kitchener Needs You" were used on a number of posters both privately produced and printed by the PRC.

To split hairs and claim that a particular poster (i.e. the one illustrated in the Telegraph which as far as we know was printed after the war) with particular text, never existed, simply to grab newspaper headlines is something that I personally would not be party to.

I claim that the Kitchener poster, in its various guises, was in public view. I also am sure that it was just one of many thousands that were pasted all over the place which together with other means of persuasion motivated masses of young men to enlist in 'Kitchener's Army".

None of us know why the particular image and text managed to span the last century and indeed become an icon of the Great War - we can theorise all we want but it was obviously due to many many factors which I am sure include each of our own pet theories.

If you have seen some of the responses to your press releases in the newspapers and maybe the comments by some very worthy contributors in this forum you will appreciate that your claim that 'The poster never existed' has not fallen lightly on some shoulders. You would rise a great deal in my estimation if you were to retract this statement and say, what I am sure you have really said in your book, that the poster with this particular combination may not have existed but there were obviously many circulated with that image and with those words.

As a graphic designer myself, I think that Leete deserves better.

I am coming to your launch on 7th. September and I hope you will sign a copy for me.

Martyn Thatcher

[JamesMSTaylor]

Thanks Michael for posting the NAM poster conference information / link.

There are a very small number of fascinating authentic reports of seeing the BRITONS poster during the war that I can find - 6 from memory. There must be others. Contrary to what the papers have said I have never claimed that the BRITONS poster does not exist.

I have located a reference in a copy of London Opinion to the private production of their Kitchener poster. It may well have been a fairly small print run and in terms of distribution and posting there appears to have been some official assistance. I have found one authentic BRITONS poster in Australia that was acquired by the State Library of Victoria c. March 1918. There must be a few more posters out there somewhere but to date I only know of this one, the example in the IWM and one in the Robert Opie collection. There are copies and fakes around too. The Australian War Memorial claims to have an original BRITONS poster by Alfred Leete but when I saw it last year it turned out to be a 1968 reproduction.

Please do come along to NAM. It would be a pleasure to meet Martyn too. We may have some differences but certainly shared interests too.

Regards

James

[JamesMSTaylor]

Sorry Martyn, I replied to Michael's post without seeing your detailed post. I will reply shortly. James

[funfly]

James, I am impressed by the amount of research that has been done for your book. If you are interested, I have a copy of the photographers log for this photograph identifying it as taken on 11th December 1914. It illustrates that the poster was distributed across the country.

As I am sure you have found, photo's of WW1 posters are like hens teeth and the only ones we come across are generally 'official' ones outside of recruiting offices and getting confirmation of dates almost impossible.

Edited 4 August , 2013 by funfly