Seany Posted 28 July , 2013 Share Posted 28 July , 2013 here is said magazine cover - is this not contemporaneous evidence of use? http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=london+opinion+magazine+september+1914&sa=X&rlz=1T4ADRA_enGB424GB424&biw=1365&bih=685&tbm=isch&tbnid=Tl2bAw_5JtL9dM:&imgrefurl=http://www.magforum.com/mens/london-opinion.htm&docid=L8XB0SnnYqqkWM&imgurl=http://www.magforum.com/mens/london_opinion_1914sep5_220.jpg&w=220&h=318&ei=dHv1UY2vFoed0QXthIC4Dg&zoom=1&iact=rc&page=1&tbnh=138&tbnw=95&start=0&ndsp=35&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:82&tx=79&ty=22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 28 July , 2013 Share Posted 28 July , 2013 This one shows the posters. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seany Posted 28 July , 2013 Share Posted 28 July , 2013 This one shows the posters. http://www.flickr.co...N08/5654723768/ Craig Eventually someone finds one. Well done Craig. I was starting to think someone had discovered time travel and gone back to remove them all. Either they were not as ubiquitous as we have been led to believe or they just don't crop up in photographs. its very interesting that they just cannot be found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 28 July , 2013 Share Posted 28 July , 2013 The Kitchener posters certainly don't seem to have been most popular one at the time - I suspect the fact it's such a strong image is what has stuck in peoples minds since 1918 rather than at the time but I'm surprised by their lack of appearance. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 28 July , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2013 Some good pictures so far but please remember that the poster I need to see is the one that looks like my avatar on the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobL Posted 28 July , 2013 Share Posted 28 July , 2013 Sounds daft, but could one issue be that people didn't normally take photographs of 'normal' streets etc? For example, I doubt many photographers today would go out and take photographs of shop fronts etc (which is probably a shame, in a way, as it documents normal life), and even less so with expenses cameras and film back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 28 July , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2013 Granville, Film clips useful to me but also good viewing as well, thanks Mart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 28 July , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2013 Seany, thanks for the magazine cover, actually we have had sight of the original. However this only proves that the London Opinion had it on their cover, we want to go the next stage and prove that the poster (like my avatar on the left) itself was displayed somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 28 July , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2013 SS02D.., the Ulster tram is one that we have - up to recently the only photograph we had that showed the poster on view. However this photo does prove that it was stuck up somewhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 28 July , 2013 Share Posted 28 July , 2013 Sounds daft, but could one issue be that people didn't normally take photographs of 'normal' streets etc? For example, I doubt many photographers today would go out and take photographs of shop fronts etc (which is probably a shame, in a way, as it documents normal life), and even less so with expenses cameras and film back then. I agree with this, but told myself that the posters would surely be evident in the background of some of the numerous film clips taken of men queuing outside recruiting offices or new recruits being marched through he towns in civvies etc, and yet despite the fact you occasionally spot one of the other well known posters of the day, the Kitchener is mysteriously very elusive to the point of not being there? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 28 July , 2013 Share Posted 28 July , 2013 Hi, I heard Prof Simkins speak earlier this year on Kitchener's new army and IIRC he said the poster wasn't in common use until much later, after the magazine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 28 July , 2013 Share Posted 28 July , 2013 People took photos of drill halls. I've looked through my rather extensive collection of drill hall postcards and not one has the Leete poster in front of it. There are plenty of posters extolling the benefits of joining the Volunteers and the Territorials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 28 July , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2013 ss02d The Kitchener posters certainly don't seem to have been most popular one at the time - I suspect the fact it's such a strong image is what has stuck in peoples minds since 1918 rather than at the time but I'm surprised by their lack of appearance There were many thousands of recruiting posters printed of many hundred designs. Most were printed and circulated by the government so 'our' poster will have been one among many. Also as 'ours' was not officially sanctioned (it was privately produced) there are no actual records of its existence at all. By forthcoming book sets out to explain, amongst other things, why the image has lasted. Having said that, the claim made in another book that the poster didn't exist at all is rubbish, common sense tells us this as well as the fact that it was copied by the Yanks and Europeans at the time. However if we are to make a case that the poster was real, even in small doses, we need to have pictorial evidence as well as anecdotal evidence of it being pasted up somewhere. In fact simply the picture showing it on the tram is proof but nice to have more sightings. It's a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack - we know it's there, just a case of finding it. Nice to have you enthusiasts along on this ride, invaluable help to me when I asked for assistance last time. Mart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robigunner88 Posted 28 July , 2013 Share Posted 28 July , 2013 I agree with this, but told myself that the posters would surely be evident in the background of some of the numerous film clips taken of men queuing outside recruiting offices or new recruits being marched through he towns in civvies etc, and yet despite the fact you occasionally spot one of the other well known posters of the day, the Kitchener is mysteriously very elusive to the point of not being there? David Exactly! I was searching for photographs of train stations in 1914 and 1915 hoping to spot one on the wall somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandie Hayes Posted 28 July , 2013 Share Posted 28 July , 2013 First one is fine, I have it as you gave it to me before, however it doesn't have a picture of the Kitchener poster. Second one is just what I want - thanks. Not a photo but better than nothing. I would like to place a date for it or give it a reference in some way. The picture is from LOOK AND LEARN (History Picture Library). The artist is Frank Bellamy. Website: http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/23812/lord-kitchener-is-best-remembered-for-a-ww1-call-up-poster/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 28 July , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2013 Robigunner88, please keep looking, I really appreciate your help. Here is a collage of some of the recruiting posters pasted up in 1914... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 28 July , 2013 Share Posted 28 July , 2013 Question, was the poster discontinued following K o K's death, were they taken down out of respect etc? If so it may well be that the posters actually had a very short life also allowing for the fact that the weather doesn't help. However there is a recording of a veteran talking about what a wonderful and effective recruiting poster the 'Kitchener' poster was as his finger was always pointing at you. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 28 July , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2013 My own view on why we don't see 'our' poster on recruiting halls etc. is that it was printed as a private venture thus not official and would not therefore have been circulated to official buildings. One thing we really don't know is how arrangements were made for privately produced posters to be displayed. Presumably the government ones could have access anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 29 July , 2013 Share Posted 29 July , 2013 Good morning, My memory of Prof Simkins talk is sketchy but I think it was on along the lines of "the bulk of the recruits had come forward before it was widely used in poster format". If that is the case it may not have been used in that format until well into 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 29 July , 2013 Share Posted 29 July , 2013 My own view on why we don't see 'our' poster on recruiting halls etc. is that it was printed as a private venture thus not official and would not therefore have been circulated to official buildings. One thing we really don't know is how arrangements were made for privately produced posters to be displayed. Presumably the government ones could have access anywhere. The poster campaigns fell under the control of the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee, and you might find these two links of interest when it comes to reading up the minutes of the debates within the committee. All aspects of recruiting are covered and quite revealing is a quoted account of the work of recruiting officers who went out into the countryside, hoping to drum up new recruits. The article concerned can be found on page 127 of the 2nd link. It basically tells of how posters they had printed and put up were often pulled down and their efforts to secure new recruits were met with disinterest etc. It paints a rather different view to the commonly accepted version of events? David http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MEW8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=Parliamentary+Recruiting+Committee+posters&source=bl&ots=C0q5gaowN2&sig=m1dc8Fc5a-C1vAlya57a2yQJ_Cs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5yf2UdetHsW40QWdkICABw&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCTge#v=onepage&q=Parliamentary%20Recruiting%20Committee%20posters&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WAgNAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=Parliamentary+Recruiting+Committee+posters&source=bl&ots=TAXHQ0pyB7&sig=LIfbIQ8ouNfs_Ko11zd3thzpxQw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lyn2UYCqHIKx0QXq8oDoBw&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=Parliamentary%20Recruiting%20Committee%20posters&f=false Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 29 July , 2013 Author Share Posted 29 July , 2013 Granville, very good link, thank you. One I have not found before. I do like the quote from Kitchener when asked to reduce recruitment numbers; "I have held up my finger and the men have flocked to me in thousands; how can I hold up my hand and tell them to go back?" Mart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funfly Posted 29 July , 2013 Author Share Posted 29 July , 2013 Robigunner88 I have had confirmation from the Railway museum that the photograph of the poster at the station was taken December 1914 and they were kind enough to send me a copy of the photographer's log showing the date taken as proof. That's a major breakthrough for me. Thanks. Mart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robigunner88 Posted 29 July , 2013 Share Posted 29 July , 2013 Mart, That's great to hear! I was having doubts after I posted the photo as the quality of it and how well organised the posters were, made me think that it could have been a display. It has been a lot harder than I had expected to find more evidence of it being used. Jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 29 July , 2013 Share Posted 29 July , 2013 That's a major breakthrough for me. Thanks. Proven provenance , can't really beat it. When's the book due out ? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seany Posted 29 July , 2013 Share Posted 29 July , 2013 Robigunner88 I have had confirmation from the Railway museum that the photograph of the poster at the station was taken December 1914 and they were kind enough to send me a copy of the photographer's log showing the date taken as proof. That's a major breakthrough for me. Thanks. Mart champagne for Robbigunner88? maybe that picture will be easier to find. however, and not wishing to be a party pooper - its a long way from the supposed common usage of the poster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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