Politics in the Trenches

[GlenBanna]

I am interested in whether the rise in the popularity of socialism was reflected amongst the ranks at the front. Strikes during the war, particularly those in Glasgow and the events in Russia must have known to them. Were there any cases of men being monitored or disciplined for "Bolshevik" views or spreading propaganda? I am not talking about pacifist movements or the Irish Home Rulers here but fighting soldiers from Scotland, England and Wales. Any information or sources would be appreciated. Thanks Glen

[WhiteStarLine]

Glen, my grandfather’s letters on November 21st 1917 comment to his mother on the Australian coal

miners’ strike and the prospect of a revolution similar to the Russian Revolution taking place in

England.

"

We had no idea over here what dimensions the strike had risen to. Those swine do not

know when they are well off, it would do the lot good to be conscripted not in the

Australian but the British Army - it would take the freshness out of them.

You are very full of the Revolution stunt. I don't think they will ever have one here - they

haven't got it in them.

"

[GlenBanna]

Thanks for the contribution WhiteStarLine. A fascinating letter.

[dycer]

Glen,

The Heading of WhiteStar's letter is "For God,For King & For Country".

Three subjects that were, and are, taboo among soldiers.

George

[Broznitsky]

The Heading of WhiteStar's letter is "For God,For King & For Country".

Three subjects that were, and are, taboo among soldiers.

What? Surely this is your opinion only, and not that of a soldier in 1917?

[dycer]

Imagine a heated political debate in the trenches when there were weapons to hand.

I do not dispute that information ,from UK, was available to men serving at the Fronts and would have been discussed by them e.g. I recently read the reprinted diary of a soldier who served at Gallipoli and on the Western Front until capture and subsequent death from wounds in 1917.In the diary he makes no mention of industrial,political unrest at home, in his case Scotland,but he records regularly receiving newspapers forwarded by relatives and friends.

Similarly it would have suited the then German cause to publicise the Russian Revolution and subsequent Peace Treaty.

I'm sure these were subject to debate ,more likely in the rest areas, than in the trenches but it would have been the Officers and NCO's role to ensure these debates did not become heated.

George

[GlenBanna]

Imagine a heated political debate in the trenches when there were weapons to hand.

I do not dispute that information ,from UK, was available to men serving at the Fronts and would have been discussed by them e.g. I recently read the reprinted diary of a soldier who served at Gallipoli and on the Western Front until capture and subsequent death from wounds in 1917.In the diary he makes no mention of industrial,political unrest at home, in his case Scotland,but he records regularly receiving newspapers forwarded by relatives and friends.

Similarly it would have suited the then German cause to publicise the Russian Revolution and subsequent Peace Treaty.

I'm sure these were subject to debate ,more likely in the rest areas, than in the trenches but it would have been the Officers and NCO's role to ensure these debates did not become heated.

George

Thanks George for the reply to my post. I agree that talk of politics could be divisive (judging from a recent post even on this forum)in a fighting unit but the purpose of my post was to see if anyone had evidence of any soldiers being disciplined or monitored because of their promotion of their political views. My post's title is perhaps misleading. I did not mean to confine the enquiry to the front line trenches but in general which would include their activity in rest areas. Glen

[Weejanie1]

Sorry cant answer your question, but your post got me thinking how some of the soldiers from the Glasgow

area felt about what was happening to their families during the rent strike which started in Govan, and if they

did voice their opinion. Assuming they knew what was going on it must have been an added worry for

them. An interesting thread. Thanks

Regards

Jane x

[bill24chev]

In 1918 any revolutionary fervour in the fighting troops, if it existed, on both sides, did not seem to unduly effect the fighting qualities of both sides.

In the first half of the year the German Army fought with great skill and bravery in the attack and the Allied armies fought with tenacity in defence.

Any reduction in Morale of the German Army, in the Hundred Days, was probably as much due to the soldiers realisation, gained through the amount of Food, and Equipment they captured during the spring and early summer, that the Allied side was still "a land of plenty". Their leaders had told them that Britain & France, due to a successful U-Boat campaign, were suffering more than the German Home Front from the RN blockade.

Action and continuations activity seems to have helped maintain a fighting spirit. The German surface fleet, on the other hand, having been inactive for long periods seems to have succumbed to revolutionary ideas. Yet the RN Grand Fleet was never affected probably because it was isolated from civilians at Scapa; and at Rosyth the morale of civil population was still high, unlike the HSF in ports such as Wilhemshaven, Bremen and Hamburg and in contact with a disillusioned and hungry civil population.

[dycer]

Glen,

Just found this in Alan Weeks Book "A Bloody Picnic(Tommy's Humour,1914-1918)".

"Daily Prevaricator-This was the nickname given to the Daily Mail.The editions in Britain tended to print a rosy picture of the war-"our brave lads" and "victory is imminent"-Horatio Bottomley stuff.In fairness to the journal,anything different was mutilated by the censors.They were less successful with continental editions,more likely to be read by those who could see what was happening."

George

[MichaelBully]

Hello Glen

I think that there's a lot to disentangle here as it were. The Trade Union movement gained throughout the Great War in the sense that when labour is in shorter supply, an organised and confident group of workers can gain greater concessions from the authorities. But from what I can work out the Trade Unions were not particularly adverse to Britain fighting in the Great War, though the TUC were opposed to conscription.

So far from what I've read, those serving were not particularly sympathetic to workers at home who were on strike, treating them in the same category as war profiteers.Certainly interested to read anything to the contrary.

From 1916 with conscription and then the Russian Revolution of 1917, there was more of a convergance of Socialism and opposition to the War at certain times and certain regions.

For example the Leeds convention of 3rd June 1917 -'The Council of Workers and Soldiers Delegates' published a summary of what happened and the text appears here.

http://www.marxists.org/history/international/social-democracy/1917/leeds.htm

But I can't see what evidence there is to suggest that servicemen were involved in any great numbers.

There are 'Red Clydeside' threads on GWF and I'm sure that there was one about the 1918 Mayday Glasgow march having 'anti-war' contingents.

There seemed to be more discontent expressed by those serving after the Armistace.

Regards

Michael Bully

I am interested in whether the rise in the popularity of socialism was reflected amongst the ranks at the front. Strikes during the war, particularly those in Glasgow and the events in Russia must have known to them. Were there any cases of men being monitored or disciplined for "Bolshevik" views or spreading propaganda? I am not talking about pacifist movements or the Irish Home Rulers here but fighting soldiers from Scotland, England and Wales. Any information or sources would be appreciated. Thanks Glen

[Broznitsky]

Were there any cases of men being monitored or disciplined for "Bolshevik" views or spreading propaganda?

Certainly the Russian men serving in the Canadian Army were monitored after November 1917, and possibly before. The extent of the monitoring would vary from battalion to battalion. Thanks to a Bolshevik request to the Imperial government, all Russians were withdrawn from front-line Canadian infantry units in March 1918. No doubt some Canadian intelligence officers supported the request. The request certainly helped my grandfather to avoid the last murderous months of the final assaults.

[CarylW]

_{Came across this illuminating little snippet a while ago, regarding the attitude of some soldiers to the Birkenhead dock strikes}

Irish Times, April 25 1915

"Gunner Charles McGonigle RA, a Derryman writing from the front to a friend in the Maiden City speaks of the hardships of the campaign, but says he never heard a single man complain. They have no sympathy with the strikers at home. The conduct of the Birkenhead men they consider the worst. Of course, they realise the cost of living has gone up, but while the strikes were going on the men in the firing line were not on their proper rations. Let the strikers think about the position of the men in the trenches who for four days never got a warm meal and who were enduring all that for the large sum of 8s or 9s a week

Caryl

[David Filsell]

I suspect God, King and country were very common subjects of discussion amongst like minded mates from mixed backgrounds - why should they not have been.

[charlesmessenger]

While a tiny minority of troops in UK did try to agitate for Soldiers & Workmen's Councils in summer 1917, there is no evidence of any similar unrest in the theatres of war, although the authorities were very sensitive to Bolshevism infecting the troops. Hence the false report of red flags being waved during the September 1917 Etaples Mutiny.

Charles M

[Guest exuser1]

On returning from the front my grandfather ex pre war regular 4th Hussars over in 1914 and wounded in 1915 became involved in politics very left wing involved in labour strikes , Shop Steward NUR ,rent strikes and in 1945 Labour mayor for Popular 1914 , and during the General Strike pulled a Cambridge graduate who was acting s a fireman off a loco and beat him senseless , he always stated the experience of the war formed his politics

[dycer]

Glen,

From Alan Weeks Book.

"Brigadier Hunter-Weston was elected to Parliament in October 1917.On hearing the news he strode outside HQ and invited (bemused)Tommies to heckle him."Go on." he insisted,"ask any questions you like.I'm a Member of Parliament now.I have been honoured by my fellow citizens."

But they didn't have a clue what to ask him(apart from whether he had a spare fag).Perhaps they thought of something later on."

George

[GlenBanna]

Glen,

From Alan Weeks Book.

"Brigadier Hunter-Weston was elected to Parliament in October 1917.On hearing the news he strode outside HQ and invited (bemused)Tommies to heckle him."Go on." he insisted,"ask any questions you like.I'm a Member of Parliament now.I have been honoured by my fellow citizens."

But they didn't have a clue what to ask him(apart from whether he had a spare fag).Perhaps they thought of something later on."

George

George Very funny but not surprising coming from Hunter-Weston. You have persuaded me to buy the book. Glen

[dycer]

Glen,

Don't buy the Book.

P.M..your address and I'll sent it on.

George

[GlenBanna]

Glen,

Don't buy the Book.

P.M..your address and I'll sent it on.

George

Very kind of you George but I have already ordered a cheap second hand paperback copy on ebay. Thanks anyway. Glen

[Sapper Will]

The memoirs of Giles Eyres of the KRRC titled Somme Harvest often mentions debates between his mates and a soldier named Roydell, who was jokingly called a socialist for his frequent tirades against war profiteers, politicians and the war itself. The book was published 20 years after the fact, however, so the long conversations he quotes should be taken with a grain of salt.

I believe there was also a TF unit in India that mutinied in 1919 when the high command didn't send them home, and was called the "Bolshie Battalion," although again this was probably little more than jocularity.

[spof]

Quote

I believe there was also a TF unit in India that mutinied in 1919 when the high command didn't send them home, and was called the "Bolshie Battalion," although again this was probably little more than jocularity.

Funnily enough, it got mentioned yesterday