HMS E34 Wreck

[Signals]

Hi All,

When I saw this u-tube video of E34 I felt disgusted at the end where this diver displays everything he has decided to take from the wreck. I can see things that look like a crewman’s Long Service Award in the shape of a Model Submarine.

You know I would not have an issue with the Royal Navy doing this as it is their boys and they have done this with Mary Rose, and we know they would honour them, but to see a resident from a non belligerent nation treating a war grave with such disrespect only fuels my thoughts that the Royal Navy where possible should dive and take what they can before these thieves take without asking. I would rather see these items in the Submarine Museum with the crew honoured and not forgotten for their sacrifice than on a foreign mantle shelf as a diver’s trophy.

Hope the British Government does something about this as it is such a disrespectful act, I wonder how he would feel if the British went to his grandmother’s graves and interfered with it.

He leaves the option on the site to leave a comment, so if you feel strongly about this then please do so. The first comment left says it all really.

D

[Seadog]

Darren thanks for posting this, I need no convincing that such disrespect is completely unacceptable but sadly there are many such examples. Please post a link to the site you mention (added :I understand you mean the video). You will be interested to look at this GWF thread.

Link

http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=197185

Regards

Norman

PS In my opinion what is shown in the video is simply grave robbery the land equivalent of which being digging-up a CWGC war grave and removing any artifacts, I see no difference whatsoever.

[Signals]

Hi Norman,

when the video plays through it shows thumbnails, up in the top left hand corner there is an E34 link, click on this and goes to U-Tube site where you can leave your message, there is only one message and it reads like this, "its a WAR GRAVE you thieving tw@t, you take only pictures,and leave only bubbles!"

I won't say he has dived, i will say He has attacked E47 AS WELL.

[Seadog]

Thanks Darren, have you contacted the All Party War Heritage Group with your concerns?, Lord Faulkner the Chairman has been very helpful on another WW1 subject recently.

Link

http://www.wargravesheritage.org.uk/

Contact details at the foot of the web page.

Norman

[ATM]

Disgusting.

[ralphjd]

Absolutely disgusting act, it's almost pornographic in it's own way. Shocking.

[ATM]

I have looked at a few on there now. You should see the way they rob the E3! It is making me very angry watching this. What is wrong with these people? These are peoples graves. What do they not understand about that? The people who raid the E3 do put some of it on display but why do they need to take as much as they can and so much from the wreck? They justify it and make out that those divers who believe that the wrecks should be looked at but not touched are being selfish not to share their finds with people!

I notice that these are all Dutch divers. How would they feel if the Dutch wrecks that litter the Java sea and East Indies from 1941/42 were raided in a similar way by the local Indonesians. Do you think they would be as angry as us?

[Seadog]

I see from a quick Google that she (E34) was sunk by a mine on the 20^th July 1918 and of her crew of 30 there were no survivors so are we saying that there is a very high possibility that human remains are still within the boat. If so then what is happening is truly disgusting and surely the British authorities must be aware, if so why has nothing been done to stop this act of desecration?

Norman

[ATM]

If you can dive it then there are certainly human remains. It is not like the Titanic, Bismarck or Hood where it is so deep that any human remains would have been destroyed by the pressure of the depth.

This reminds me of something a few years back. When I was a STAB at Catterick in 2007 I met a lad and kept in touch with him. He told me over the internet that later in 2007 he went diving on a U-Boat wreck that isn't that far off the English coast and not that deep. I duly looked it up and it confirmed on the web what he said. He also told me that he had actually taken a couple of skulls from the U-Boats wreck and kept them as souvenirs. As they were the skulls of German sailors it apparently made it okay to take them. Needless to say we didn't speak much after that.

[Seadog]

Thanks, we can discuss this situation but it needs someone to ascertain just what the official view is regarding a British naval vessel being desecrated in this way. May I suggest that those with concerns contact the authorities starting with the Royal Navy and MOD plus in particular the contacts available in my post 4 who are playing an important role in the 100th commemoration events planned for 2014. This group "has the ear" of the government ministers responsible for the protection of both the vessels and the human remains of our armed forces and in my experience will respond to situations such as the subject of this thread.

Norman

[Simon Mills]

Thanks, we can discuss this situation but it needs someone to ascertain just what the official view is regarding a British naval vessel being desecrated in this way.

Norman

These two links might help. One gives the details of the provisions for the Protection of Military Remains Act (1986) and the other lists all of the warships currently covered by the Act. No. 1 on the list (HMS Bulwark) is of particular relevance to me as one of my great uncles was one of the +/-730 killed when she blew up.

http://www.legislati...986/35/contents

http://www.dft.gov.u...ks-military.htm

If a vessel is not actually a designated wreck or controlled site then the official viewpoint of the MoD, and indeed the relevant diving agencies, is a policy of look but don’t touch. It doesn’t always work that way of course. Either way, anything that is recovered from a wreck in UK waters has by law to be declared to the Receiver of Wreck UK (part of the MCA at Southampton) but this is probably another custom more honoured in the breach than the observance...

[Seadog]

Thanks Simon I am aware of the current schedule of protected sites and ships. The issue here is one of morality and common decency and respect for our dead. The boat is not in UK territorial waters but despite that fact if people have a concern regarding the treatment of this wreck and the fact that artifacts are being plundered from what is a British naval vessel quite possibly containing human remains then they should make their concerns known to those with the influence to do something about it. We can talk forever on forums such as this but that will not change anything for the better unless action is taken. In the recent past I have asked for and received excellent information from the Shadow Secretary of Defence which has never been placed in the public domain and the same from Lord Faulkner as previously mentioned. If you can get the national newspapers to get on board then that will help as well. There is no better time than the present to take action with the 100^th anniversary coming up and all WW1 topics receiving a high profile.

Regards

Norman

[ATM]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but am I right in remembering that in the 80's the MOD actually sold the salvage rights to the Hogue, Cressy and Aboukir to a Dutch salvage company?

[Seadog]

You think that is bad what about this from the link below:

According to a Freedom of Information request submitted by The Times to the Department for Transport, a total of 309 merchant vessels lost during the two world wars have been sold, netting the Government about £53,000.

How many of these were "war graves" in the sense that human remains were in-situ?.

Link - SS Storaa

http://www.richardbuxton.co.uk/v3.0/taxonomy/term/18

Norman

[Simon Mills]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but am I right in remembering that in the 80's the MOD actually sold the salvage rights to the Hogue, Cressy and Aboukir to a Dutch salvage company?

Yes, that is correct, although I'm not sure about the date -- according to Wikipedia the HMS Hogue was sold in the 1950s but there are probably other sources to check. I guess it's a case of that was then and this is now. That doesn't make it any more palatable but the current attitude in the MoD is basically one of what's done is done. They cannot do anything about the fact that Aboukir, Hogue and Cressy have been legally sold but as I understand it the British Government no longer sells any war wrecks that they have on their books where loss of life was incurred. I assume that this has something to do with the 1986 Act, but I could be wrong.

Even so, the fact that a wreck remains the property of the British Government won't necessarily stop some sport divers from picking up the occasional bit of booty...

[Simon Mills]

The boat is not in UK territorial waters but despite that fact if people have a concern regarding the treatment of this wreck and the fact that artifacts are being plundered from what is a British naval vessel quite possibly containing human remains then they should make their concerns known to those with the influence...

Regards

Norman

When it comes to retrievals made from vessels outside of UK territorial waters, if any of the items are landed in a UK port then by law they have to be reported to the UK Receiver of Wreck, which is a part of the MCA; this is the body that is supposed to track down any potential owners.

Admittedly it would be a bit naïve of me to believe that every sports diver follows the rules, as witness the three-month Amnesty held in 2001 so that any divers could report any previously undeclared booty without fear of prosecution -- by the time the Amnesty expired 4,616 reports had been filed, detailing something in the order of 30,000 individual items. Even so, the law does exist (at least, in the UK) but while some divers have been know to report people that they have seen making unauthorised retrievals, I would imagine that most don’t…

[MichaelBully]

Thanks posting this Darren and it's most alarming, I hope people that will post comments on You Tube to challenge this looting and insult to a war grave.

It would be great if those GWF pals who interested in this subject could develop some links with likeminded groups across the North Sea.

There is a worthy organisation 'Bescherm een wrak' ( 'Protect a Wreck' ), based in Netherlands., Regards, Michael Bully

http://beschermeenwrak.nl/

[Seadog]

Michael sadly nothing you suggest will have any impact on this situation whatsoever. Comments on YouTube are meaningless and getting in touch with "Protect a Wreck" will in my opinion prove equally pointless, the vessels are British, the crew are British therefore if people think that what is happening is unacceptable then the only way to change matters is by contacting and lobbying those here in the UK who have influence and can change things for the better. Nothing else will work and further debate is a waste of time, whilst this may sound somewhat blunt then frankly these are the facts as I see them. Perhaps on this subject someone can explain just what "war graves" actually means in the maritime context for I cannot see that any such description exists and even if it does just what vessels are included and how is it policed for even if it exists then it does not apply to E34..

Regards

Norman

[MichaelBully]

Hello Norman.

The twit who posted the video on YouTube won't stop their antics due to negative comments. Agreed. But casual viewers of the video might also question the ethics of taking items from the wreck which could be a help.

With regard to the liaising with possible Dutch sympathisers , I'd say their knowledge is vital. OK we can agree that the British Government should do something. But we need to know what actually can be done. Is there any international legal basis to designate the wrecks as (protected) 'war graves' or 'conservation areas' ? Can Dutch law make it more difficult for these underwater looters to operate?

Yes it would be great to have some sort of agreed working definition of a 'martime war grave'.

Regards

Michael Bully

Michael sadly nothing you suggest will have any impact on this situation whatsoever. Comments on YouTube are meaningless and getting in touch with "Protect a Wreck" will in my opinion prove equally pointless, the vessels are British, the crew are British therefore if people think that what is happening is unacceptable then the only way to change matters is by contacting and lobbying those here in the UK who have influence and can change things for the better. Nothing else will work and further debate is a waste of time, whilst this may sound somewhat blunt then frankly these are the facts as I see them. Perhaps on this subject someone can explain just what "war graves" actually means in the maritime context for I cannot see that any such description exists and even if it does just what vessels are included and how is it policed for even if it exists then it does not apply to E34..

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

Hi Michael in my opinion the first move should be to contact those whose details are available on this thread and inform them of the situation as regards this boat. I restate that the All Party War Heritage Group is very involved with all aspects of the Great War and the impending 2014 commemoration so I would contact the Chairman. The alternative is to accept the situation and do nothing in which case discussion is pointless, that “actions speak louder that words” still remains true

Regards

Norman

PS I would also contact the submarine museum at Gosport

PPS Include your local MP

[MichaelBully]

Hello Norman, will have a think what can be done and get back to you. Yes quite happy to write to All Party War Heritage Group, and my MP. Regards, Michael Bully

Hi Michael in my opinion the first move should be to contact those whose details are available on this thread and inform them of the situation as regards this boat. I restate that the All Party War Heritage Group is very involved with all aspects of the Great War and the impending 2014 commemoration so I would contact the Chairman. The alternative is to accept the situation and do nothing in which case discussion is pointless, that “actions speak louder that words” still remains true

Regards

Norman

PS I would also contact the submarine museum at Gosport

PPS Include your local MP

[Signals]

Theo Beelien is the name of the Diver raiding British wrecks from WW1, below you can see he is the Tomb Raider of E3 as well as you guys mentioned, so that is now E3, E34, & E47 he has raided for the purpose of his own selfish indulgence, below also is his company Holland Adventure Productions when you can join in on his fun and moral high standards of theft. Divers are sensitive re bad publicity so I say go forth and leave a comment. Be nice to go on his little adventure and make him walk the plank.

HOLLAND ADVENTURE PRODUCTIONS

http://users3.smartgb.com/g/g.php?a=s&i=g35-11473-e4

[Duiker]

It is not only this man, he only make pictures and films.

There a total of three diving clubs that do this in the noth of the Netherlands.

Anton

[Peter Bennett]

I am researching a man named James Hoole who allegedly died on this submarine but there are no details on CWGC

Can anyone please help or advise

Thank you

[sadsac]

Hello Peter. I am able to say with certainty that no James HOOLE was lost in E.34, or, indeed, ANY RN submarine !

Probably the reason that he does not show up I CWGC files !!

Sadsac