WW2 RAF commanders

[PhilB]

I`m currently reading about the RFC and am surprised that almost all the WW2 RAF commanders seem to have been in the RFC of 1914-15. Were there any who hadn`t flown in the RFC? Is that what one would expect, considering that over 20 years elapsed between the two conflicts? Phil B

[Andrew Smith]

G'day Phil,

Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Longmore was ex RNAS as were;

Air Marshal Sir John Babington/Tremayne

Air Vice-Marshal H M Cave-Browne-Cave

Air Vice-Marshal Raymond Collishaw

Air Chief Marshal Sir Douglas Evill

Air Vice-Marshal Charles William Nutting

From the Australian Flying Corp;

Air Vice Marshal Edgar James Kingston-McClaughry

Air Vice-Marshal Wilfred Ashton McClaughry

Air Vice Marshal Sir Anthony Paxton

These are just a few off the top of my head. All these men had senior roles in the RAF during WW2.

Andrew.

[christine liava'a]

And don't forget Arthur, Lord Tedder (hope I got that title right!)

Arthur William Tedder

Dorset Reg’t

born 11 July 1890 educated Cambridge University

Granted a reserve commission

in the Dorsetshire Regiment whilst at University,

he joined the Colonial Service

and was appointed to the administration in Fiji.

2 Sep 1913:Officer, Dorset Regiment. (Special Reserve)

15 Jan 1916:Attended No 1 School of Aeronautics.

27 Apr 1916:'Wings' Course, Central Flying School.

16 Jun 1916:Pilot, No 25 Sqn RFC. (Bristol Scout C - Western Front) 9 Aug 1916:Flight Commander, No 25 Sqn RFC.

1 Jan 1917: Officer Commanding, No 70 Sqn. RFC.

(Sopwith 11 Strutter – Western Front)

25 Jun 1917:Officer Commanding, No 67 Sqn RFC/RAF. (Various types – Middle East)

24 Jun 1918:Officer Commanding, 38th Wing. (Egypt) 2 Apr 1919: Reverted to Major (Army).

20 May 1919:Officer Commanding, No 274 Sqn. (V/1500 – Bircham Newton)

1 Aug 1919: Awarded Permanent Commission as a Major

1 Feb 1920: Officer Commanding, No 207 Sqn. (DH9A – Bircham Newton /Turkey)

24 Sep 1923:Attended RN Staff College.

3 Sep 1924: Officer Commanding, No 2 FTS.

1 Jan 1927:Air Staff, Directorate of Training.

19 Dec 1927:Supernumerary, RAF Depot.

16 Jan 1928:Attended Imperial Defence College.

3 Jan 1929:Assistant Commandant, RAF Staff College.

1 Jan 1932:Supernumerary, RAF Depot

16 Jan 1932: Officer Commanding, Air Armament School - Eastchurch. 4 Apr 1934:Director of Training.

11 Nov 1936:AOC, RAF Far East. 20 Jul 1938: Director-General of Research & Development

1 Aug 1940: (Deputy?) Air Member for Development & Production

29 Nov 1940:Deputy AOC in C, RAF Middle East Command

1 Jun 1941:AOC in C, RAF Middle East

15 Feb 1943:Air C-in-C, Mediterranean Air Command

10 Dec 1943:Air C-in-C, Mediterranean Allied Air Forces

17 Jan 1944:Air C-in-C & Deputy Supreme Allied Commander, SHAEF.

1 Jan 1946: Chief of the Air Staff

2 Jan 1950:Chairman, British Joint Services Mission – Washington

Baron - 1 Jan 1946 GCB - 27 Nov 1942 (KCB - 1942, CB - 1 Feb 1937),

BA – 1912,

LoM (CC) - 27 Aug 1943,

(H) DCL, LL.D, PR (GC) -1 Oct 1943,

OK1 - 28 Aug 1945,

DSM (US) - 14 Jun 1946,

GCOCP - 18 Jun 1946,

CdeG - 18 Jun 1946,

GI-GC - 6 Sep 1946

retired 30 May 1951 died 3 Jun 1967

and to think that he started as a lowly cadet in the colonial service!

[PhilB]

Thanks, Andrew and Christine. I think you`re reinforcing what I thought, but didn`t phrase too well, that the WW2 commanders all flew in WW1 in RFC or associated arms. It seemed a pretty small gene pool from which to select commanders for a much bigger pond in the 40s. Or was it just not practical to expect someone coming into the RAF in, say, 1920 to reach command level in 20 years? Your views would be appreciated. Phil B

[christine liava'a]

speaking completely without knowledge, but thinking about the RAf situation in ww2, who else was there to choose from?

These men all had practical experience of flying against an enemy, and, since they had remained in the airforce, had had 20 years of both organizational training and were up to date with advances in aeroplanes and flying.

Younger men were trained in technique but had no practical experience of fighting. And the exWW1 men were all in their 40s/50s- an asset to the Force, with skills in dealing with politicians etc, whereas younger ones would probably not be as good at that.

The same situation probably applied in other airforces too

[gem22]

Phil

You might like to read Sholto Douglas's book 'Years of Combat'. He flew in the RFC in WW1 and went on to Command in the RAF in WW2.

Garth

[Bryn_Hammond]

Trafford Leigh-Mallory (he of 'Big Wing' fame) is another not mentioned so far.

He was CO, 8 Squadron in June 1918 when the squadron was allotted a tank co-operation role. L-M subsequently spent much of the inter-war years as the RAF's leading expert on Army Co-operation - a lone voice crying in the wilderness, I fear...

Bryn

[ChrisM]

Bryn...

And in fact here he is, in a pilot's log I have been looking at.

Chris

[Muerrisch]

AVM Paul Copeland MALTBY.

Commissioned RWF 1911 from Sandhurst, Went to France with 2RWF 11/13 Aug 1914 as Lt and MG Officer, Captain 19 Nov 1914, accidentally shot in foot by fellow officer on night patrol, took the hint and transferred to somewhere safer [!] like the RFC. DSO for war flying. AFC 1919, Commandant CFS 1932 to 34. AOC Java 1942 and captured by Japs. Retired 1946. Sjt at Arms House of Lords to 1962. Died 2 July 1971 aged 79, as KCVO, KBE, CB, DSO, AFC, DL, Grand Commander Order of Orange Nassau. And more campaign medals than most, too.

[Frank_East]

Not forgetting the New Zealander Keith Park who commanded RAF No 11 Group during the Battle of Britain and was a RFC veteran from the Great War.

It was Park along with Dowding who devised the report and control procedure which was to pay dividends during the Battle of Britain in the SE zone of the country.Dowding snubbed Leigh Mallory when Leigh Mallory expected to move across from heading No 12 Group to head No 11 Group,the most important Group, in early 1940.Dowding instead selected Park,his Senior Air Staff Officer to organise the air defence of the vital SE region of the country.

The relationship between the two commanders was said to be less than cordial and led to a long term disagreement between the two.Leigh Mallory criticised Park for not adopting his "Big Wing" theory of air warfare while Park held the firm and correct assessment that his Group did not have time to form up in greater strengths given that his units had less warnings of Luftwaffe penitration into British airspace than No 12 Group.Not a satisfactory thing to have happen in a command structure,it led to Leigh Mallory's ineffectivenessor or lack of co-operation allowing one of Park's airfields,Debden, to be bombed whilst the airfield was undefended.

Leigh Mallory was the younger brother of George Mallory who disappeared on Everest in 1924 and was known as Mallory as distinct from from the hyphened Leigh - Mallory.

There were many more ex RFC personnel who appeared as Second World War RAF commanders, particularly in Bomber Command as Group Commanders early in the war.

Regards

Frank East

[PhilB]

All right, folks. Now, some examples please of non-RFC men who "made it" in WW2? Phil B

[PhilB]

These men all had practical experience of flying against an enemy,

Christine, would this include Henderson, Sykes, Brancker and Trenchard? Did they ever fly combat? (If not, it didn`t seem to impede their rise in the service).