Some things I encountered today

[AOK4]

Hello,

After visiting Kezelberg Military Cemetery today, I have two questions for the forum.

Is it normal that if a soldiers served in two regiments during the war, then the two regiments are mentioned on the gravestone?

I saw the grave of 44056 Private W. M. Moffatt, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers (this badge is on the stone) and the King's Liverpool Regiment and of 295049 Corporal J. Reid Royal Scots Fusiliers (this badge is on the stone) and Ayrshire (E.C.O.) Yeomanry.

I saw the practice of mentioning two regiments quite often on the graves of airmen, but I can't remember having seen this on other graves before. Maybe I'm wrong?

I thought that all soldiers belonging to the Royal Engineers were called "Sappers", I saw the grave of 87347 Pioneer H. C. Ames today. I saw on the CWGC website that the man belonged to the First Army HQ Signals Company. Is this the reason for his rank being "Pioneer"? Are there official rules for soldiers to be called "pioneer" or "sapper"?

Regards,

Jan

[munce]

I can reply to one specific part of your question. The Ayrshire Yeomanry was absorbed into the Royal Scots Fusiliers (along with the Lanarkshire Yeomanry) in early 1917, to become the 12th Battalion RSF (Ayrshire & Lanarkshire Yeomanry). So anyone from the 12 RSF who joined up before the amalgamation would have a special connection with the AY (or of course the LY), which is no doubt why it was put on the headstone.

[AOK4]

Thanks a lot munce for this information.

Jan

[CROONAERT]

I'm unsure of the specific "rules" regarding rank titles, but several "oddities" can be encountered in units such as the Royal Engineers. Another example I can think of is the rank of "2nd Corporal" as can be found on the headstone of a R.E. buried in Ypres Ramparts Cemetery.

Dave.

[Terry_Reeves]

The rank of pioneer was used by the RE only in WW1. The traditional rank of Sapper had been in use since the the late 1850's Prior to that the men had belonged to the Royal Sapper and Miners in which the lowest rank was private. The officers belonged to the Royal Engineers. In 1856 two were amalgamated into the RE and the rank of sapper was adopted.

With the massive expansion of the RE in WW1, and with many new types of duties to perform, it was realised that not all men needed to be trained in the traditional RE techniques of fieldworks nor indeed needed an artisan trade.

Men not trained in fieldworks ect were given the rank of pioneer. This rank can be found in many RE units including the RE Special Brigade after 1915.

The rank of 2nd Cpl was used only in the RE and ASC. I believe the soldier wore a L/Cpl's stripe but ranked between L/Cpl and Cpl. Know doubt there will somebody who will have the definitive answer.

Terry Reeves

[Cliff. Hobson]

There is man buried in our Village Churchyard, died of wounds August 1918,

enlisted originally Leicestershire Regt., attached Royal Engineers as a Pioneer, presumably served the same purpose for the R.E.s as the Pioneer Corps for the Army in general.

Cliff. Hobson.

[Conor Dodd]

I think that the crest on the headstone is that of the regiment that the person was serving with when he died e.g. Moffatt was formerly of the Liverpool Regt.

Conor

[stevenbecker]

2/Cpl was used in RE and AASC and MP's and was used because there was no rank of L/Sgt (Lance Sgt).

A man could use the Sgt's mess but not other units mess's.

I believe this was discontinued in 1920 see Army order 142.

S.B

[AOK4]

Thanks all for your replies!

The crest on the stone is indeed the one of the regiment in which the deceased served when he died, but my question stays: is it normal that the other regiment in which the man served is mentioned on the stone?

Regards,

Jan

[Ivor Lee]

Conor

Interestingly although I, like you, understand that the badge shown is that of the regiment the man was serving in when he died this is not the case for men of the Labour Corps.

For these men the decision was made that the badge should be that of the regiment they first served in.

[Ivor Lee]

Cliff

Regarding the man buried in your Village Churchyard.

Can I check whether you are saying he is shown as serving in R.E?

You mentioned you thought he was undertaking the same sort of role as the "Pioneer Corps did for the Army in general."

Two points on this:

(1) there wasn't a Pioneer Corps during WW1.

(2) if by Pioneer Corps you are referrring to the Labour Corps, these men were used by all branches of the Army including the R.E.

By the way, if he was in the Labour Corps and you want to know more about his service let me know his name, regimental number and date of death.

[Terry_Reeves]

Really just to confirm Ivor's post. In my local cemetery is the grave of 436795 Pte Alfred Hutt, a relative of Arthur Hutt VC. Alfred died in Plymouth in 1918 whilst serving with the Labour Corps but originally served in 2nd Bn Dorset Regiment. It is the latter badge that is on his headstone.

Terry Reeves

[Terry Denham]

Just to confirm the details about Labour Corps men. As is said above, the CWGC usually incorporate the man's former regimental badge and also include both units in their database. As so many transferred to the Labour Corps later in the war, it would not be a true reflection of their active service only to state 'Labour Corps'.

However, there are some men with only Labour Corps database entries presumably men who went into the Corps direct or who had served in it for a very long time.

[Guest FRANKBARTHOLOMEW]

Just out of interest, soldiers did sometimes change regiments for a variety of reasons. My great-grandfather was originally a reservist (2nd Battn. Lancashire Fusiliers- having previously served with the 1st Battn. King's Own Royal Lancaster Regiment in India and Burma), who was gassed at Ypres in 1915, and then transferred to the 9th Battn. of the Lancashire Fusiliers.

He then saw action at Gallipoli (Chocolate Hill etc.), before being invalided back to Blighty with some kind of 'tropical' disease. Whilst (supposedly) recovering, he and some friends went and re-enlisted, and he ended up in the Devonshire Regiment in Mesopotamia (1/4th or 1/6th Battalion, I don't know!)- where he was shot in the leg by a Turkish Sniper and returned to Britain (after almost dying from infection, having been left in the desert for 48 hours), and became RQMS at Dorchester.

He died in 1978, aged 96.

[Guest mrs b]

Conor

Interestingly although I, like you, understand that the badge shown is that of the regiment the man was serving in when he died this is not the case for men of the Labour Corps.

For these men the decision was made that the badge should be that of the regiment they first served in.

I agree. My grandfather joined the 3rd battalion West Yorkshire Regiment on 27th july 1914.

His active service Paybook lists him as Labour Corps, and all his photos have him in a KOSB uniform and cap

[Michael]

Mrs B

They are talking about the badges on the grave stones rather than on their uniforms

(going through this thread reminds us old sweats of some old faces that aren't with us any longer)

[SiegeGunner]

(going through this thread reminds us old sweats of some old faces that aren't with us any longer)

Are you sure? According to their stats, most people contributing to this thread have been active in September 2006 and the oldest 'last active' date is May 2006.

[Michael]

I was thinking of Jan and Ivor who I haven't seen here for a long time. They were both very valuable contributors

Mick

[SiegeGunner]

I see what you mean. Neither of them has posted for a long time, although both have logged on in the last few weeks. Perhaps we should view it as a challenge to produce a topic interesting enough to persuade them to break their silence.