Archaeology Gallipoli

[Guest]

16 hours ago, trajan said:

Also, just how many of the ANZAC men at Gallipoli had up-to-date SMLE's as is implied? I have not studied the subject in detail but my memory is that some units at Gallipoli, possibly including ANZAC ones, had MLE's...

Julian

 

Some British TF Units definitely had long Lee Enfields. The 54th (East Anglian) Div operated at ANZAC for a significant part of their time on the Peninsula. There were also issues of compatibility with ammunition types. All recorded in the war diaries. 

[T8HANTS]

1 minute ago, QGE said:

 

Some British TF Units definitely had long Lee Enfields. The 54th (East Anglian) Div operated at ANZAC for a significant part of their time on the Peninsula. There were also issues of compatibility with ammunition types. All recorded in the war diaries. 

I think 54th Div had the distinction of being the last British division to be re-equipped with SMLE's as they did not wave goodbye to their LLE's until August 1917.

[trajan]

2 hours ago, michaeldr said:

... must admit that to date I have not yet completed my reading of this book and in view of your remarks I don't think that it is about to move any more quickly up the pile. ... 

 

Well, it is very readable (except in parts), and the account of their work on how the battlefield was recorded in the past (including Sevik's maps), their tracing of trenches, the change from battlefield to memorial park, etc., is interesting, as are their many quotes from private diaries. The account of things on the Turkish side is not so well written, but again interesting. So well worth the reading, although I honestly cannot say anything on their overview of the campaign. BUT I was not entirely impressed by their knowledge of artefacts. OK, so forget the Gew.98 and SMLE issue for the moment, they do well in some places (e.g., IDing a German trouser buckle), but even without detailed checking they screw up in others.

 

So, for example, a piece of glazed white earthenware with the remains of a blue transfer print reading "1873" (Artefact A997, Plate 8.15), is described on p.178 as reading "1837" (in error), and is hypothetised as being made in that year, but "kept for some time and reused", arriving at ANZAC with homemade "jam or preserves" as "part of a care package sent from home to an Anzac soldier"... Well, yes, but my immediate reaction of when I saw it was that it is from a type of glazed white earthenware container commonly used in the late 19th - early 20th century for such things as Cooper's Original Oxford Marmalade (oh how I miss it!) with the date the establishment was founded printed on it... And indeed a quick search of Google made just now for "established 1873" throws up item IWM EPH 4861: Earthenware jar originally containing marmalade, it is an off-white colour, crackle glazed with lettering on one side reading "GRAND MEDAL OF MERIT VIENNA 1873. JAMES KEILLER & SON'S DUNDEE MARMALDE. ONLY PRIZE MEDAL FOR MARMALADE LONDON 1882" (emphasis added)

 

Ok, I am well known for being a bit of a "POldF", but this is a classic case of somebody not having brain in gear when looking at the item...

 

Julian  

 

 

 

[michaeldr]

Julian,

I do assure you that you're not the only one who misses Coopers, but apparently a love of real marmalade only demonstrates one's age:

see https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/feb/24/marmalade-in-decline-as-paddington-struggles-to-lift-sales

for “the once popular spread is now mainly the preserve of older generations, with about 60% of sales going to the over-65s and just 1% to those under 28.

Thanks for your further comments on the book, which is not moving up the pile any quicker

regards

Michael

[keithmroberts]

Keillers Marmalade was still sold in those  white jars, or a redesigned version into my teenage years. (1960's). These days it is sold in glass.

 

Keith

[MikeyH]

We still have a couple of the white Keillers jars, 'Roughcut Lemon' and 'Three Fruits' marked 'established 1797'.  Now used for storage of buttons etc.

 

Mike.

 

Edited 12 March , 2017 by MikeyH

[michaeldr]

A bit of Off-Topic Serendipity – Keiller, the Great War & archeology

Alexander Keiller, the heir to the marmalade family, served in the Eton College Rifles while at school (1904-7) and between May 1911 and October 1913 was a Lieutenant in the 7^th Gordon Highlanders.

He had an interest in automobiles and helped finance Sizaire-Berwick.

In October 1914 he joined the RNVR as a Sub-Lieutenant, describing his civilian employment as 'motor engineer'

In June 1915 he was appointed to HMS President additional for armoured cars, being based at Chingford with the rank of Acting Flight Leiutenant (Temporary)

Flight Lieutenant Keiller RNAS received Royal Aero Club Aviators' Certificate 2132, flying an Avro Biplane at RNAS Chingford, 27 November 1915

[question – did the new aviator have an accident shortly after this?]

He had a medical 23 December 1915 which ruled him unfit for service and was referred to the Admiralty for another check which confirmed on 24 January 1916 he was 'unfit for further service' and his appointment was terminated as physically unfit.

End of story, except that in 1918 he appears again, this time in a staff capacity with the RAF at the Air Ministry, as an D.D.A.I. (Intelligence?), in the rank of Temp. Capt. as a Staff Officer 3^rd Class, vice Major E. Childers DSO.

Keiller is finally transferred to the Unemployed List with the rank of Captain on 15 April 1919

and post-war enters the field of archeology, most famously at Avebury

 

[edit - what a pity that there is no sign of a Gallipoli connection, shards of old jam jars excepted]

Edited 12 March , 2017 by michaeldr

[trajan]

4 hours ago, michaeldr said:

I do assure you that you're not the only one who misses Coopers, but apparently a love of real marmalade only demonstrates one's age:

 

55 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

A bit of Off-Topic Serendipity – Keiller, the Great War & archeology ... [edit - what a pity that there is no sign of a Gallipoli connection, shards of old jam jars excepted]

 

Michael,

 

Well, I do have to hide my supply from my two lads when I get back here from visits to Blighty, and so there is a new generation of Turkish-Brits who have a taste for the stuff, but, yes, I had noticed how it seems harder and harder to find a decent brand when I do my end-of-visit shopping. And as for Keiller, I knew of the marmalade connection but not the GW one, so thanks! 

 

Now, back to Gallipoli and that jar... I am developing this enduring image of some recent migrant down south pining for the taste of home and perhaps trading an account of a female sniper with some visiting Brit in return for a jar of the precious commodity...

 

Julian 

[michaeldr]

On 29/06/2013 at 12:57, Guest said:

Map from the Medical Services volume...

Edit. "The Diary of a Yeomanry Medical Officer" by Capt O Teichman has a sketch map opposite page 38 which shows the same ADS as the man on this post. The southern most of the two behind Chocolate Hill is the 4th Bde Field Ambulance. It also confirms the location of the CCS south of Lala Baba on C Beach.

MG

 

Martin's above map is excellent in its way, however with particular reference to Captain Auden and the two wells which he visited and studied,

then the map which appears in 'War Experiences of a Territorial Medical Officer' by Sir Richard Luce is more helpful

Below is an enlarged crop.

 

 

[The book can be found on the Wellcome Foundation's excellent website - https://wellcomelibrary.org/item/b18699625#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=0&z=0.4089%2C0.1119%2C0.6634%2C0.4167]

Edited 8 December , 2018 by michaeldr