Info needed On Race Brothers, Cap Badge/s Question

[Vigotonefan]

Hi All, This is my first post on this great forum & hopefully some of you experts can fill in some gaps in my family WW1 military history. My Great grandfather & his four brothers were all in the Great War (& ALL amazingly came home!). I know what regiments that three of them were in but the other two i have no idea, them being John and Joseph Race. In the last few months this picture has turned up which shows the two that i am looking for in uniform(!)

I am assuming that the picture was taken circa 1915 but if anybody can tell me otherwise then do say! Also ANY additional info that people can tell from the photo would be greatly appreciated like ranks/positions etc, no matter how 'obvious' it might be i might of missed it. For example Joseph Race looks to be 'important' with his uniform but this may be the norm when i find out who he was with....

From Left to right (Top Row):

Henry George Race (My Great Grandfather): Born 1881, In The Army Service Corps.

Arthur Sidney Race: Born 1894, In The Grenadier Guards.

John Race: Born 1885, (??????????????)

Robert William Race: Born 1880, In The Coldstream Guards.

From Left to right (Bottom Row):

Joseph Race: (Father Of The Brothers): Born 1852.

Joseph Race: Born 1877, (???????????????)

All five brothers were born in Lackford, Suffolk

Hopefully i have not hit you all with too many questions, i guess i have to start somewhere!

Many Thanks, David.

[Vigotonefan]

Close Up Of John & Joseph's cap badges..... David.

[dundeesown]

The one on the right looks to be The Suffolk Yeomanry.

Gary

P.S. Welcome to the Forum.

[RussT]

The one on the left looks like the Suffolk Rgt

[IPT]

The only Joseph Race I can find was 5447/later 202258 Suffolk Regiment. He enlisted 30/11/1915 and went abroad at some stage. He was discharged due to eyesight, aged 34, 14/4/1919, which fits with your man's age on the census (have you mixed up John and Joseph?)

[Stebie9173]

A possible for Joseph Race is No. 5447 (later renumbered to 202258) in the Suffolk REGIMENT. He is shown as enlisting on the 30-11-1915 (probably a volunteer under the Derby Scheme) and is part of a group of men transferred from the 1st Reserve Regiment of the Suffolk Yeomanry to the 1/4th Battalion of the Suffolk Regiment on 6-12-1916 at No. 15 Infantry Base Depot just after embarking to France on 6-12-1916. The draft joined the 1/4th Suffolk Regiment on 3-1-1917.

An example of the Drafts movements can be seen on the records of Bertie Frederick Lovick (No. 2409 Suffolk Yeomanry and Nos. 5441 and 202252 Suffolk Regiment); and Fison Parker (No. 3413 Suffolk Yeomanry and Nos. 5448 and 202259 Suffolk Regiment)

Ernest Edward Meadows (202229, Killed in action with 1/4th Suffolks 23-4-1917) and Leonard Albert Cutting (202275, died of Wounds 2-5-1917) both also served with the Suffolk Yeomanry before serving with the 1/4th Battalion Suffolk Regiment.

This Joseph Race was discharged on 14-4-1919 due to poor eyesight (presumably at least aggravated by war service). His age is shown as 34, however. The rest though is a good fit to the picture.

Steve.

Edit: I was a bit late there, but I think IPT and I would agree this man is a good "probable"!

[Stebie9173]

202258 Joseph Race was taken POW some time in 1917.

Steve.

[RussT]

There is a MIC (VM & BWM) to an Arthur Sidney Race of the GG number 23429. Enlisted 17-03-1915, discharged due to wounds on 26-06-1918.

[RussT]

And a MIC to a Pte Henry G Race, ASC No M/415977

[Guest]

In my view the badges in question are the Suffolk Regiment (possibly one of the TF battalions) and the Duke of York's Own Loyal Suffolk (Yeomanry) Hussars. There is zero doubt on the latter.

The Suffolk Regiment on the other hand had subtlety different badges for the Regulars and the TF battalions. The Regulars' badge used the key and castle of Gibraltar, whereas the 4th, 5th and 6th TF battalions used the a different castle ..the same castle as that used by the Loyal Suffolk Hussars......I suspect it is a castle of one of the Suffolk towns but the History of the Suffolk Yeomanry makes no reference to it.

The 5th Bn HQ was based in Bury St Edmunds (7 miles from Lackford) along with E Coy which had a drill station at Barrow less than 7 miles from Lackford) and F Coy....less than 7 miles from Lackford. The 6th (Cyclist) Bn also had a its H Coy in Bury St Edmunds.

Any mistakes are mine. Edited.

MG.

[Vigotonefan]

Thank you all very much for the fantastic response to my questions and taking the time to reply, it is very much appreciated! First off i got the birth years of John and Joseph the wrong way round (thank you IPT for making me aware of it).... In my defense these two guys have proven the most difficult to 'sort out' but after speaking to a family member that i have re-discovered through my research (the son of Arthur Sidney Race) i DO have the correct names with the faces in the photo, so just to be clear & correct my first post:

John Race: Born 1877.

Joseph Race: Born 1885.

Joseph:

While researching through Ancestry i found two MIC's for Joseph, one being Reg No: 5447/202258 and the other 43600 in the 'KOYLI' but without knowing who he was with i obviously had no idea if either of them were him.

A question for Martin G: Your answer being he was in the 'Duke Of York's Own Loyal Suffolk (Yeomanry) Hussars' would this still tally in with the detailed reply from Steve?:

"A possible for Joseph Race is No. 5447 (later renumbered to 202258) in the Suffolk REGIMENT. He is shown as enlisting on the 30-11-1915 (probably a volunteer under the Derby Scheme) and is part of a group of men transferred from the 1st Reserve Regiment of the Suffolk Yeomanry to the 1/4th Battalion of the Suffolk Regiment on 6-12-1916 at No. 15 Infantry Base Depot just after embarking to France on 6-12-1916. The draft joined the 1/4th Suffolk Regiment on 3-1-1917."

-Or is this a different man? With my corrected birth years it does point to my Joseph being him... The information on the battalions locations near to Lackford was very interesting indeed & the kind of detail it would of taken me a 'long' time to find out. Do you have a special interest in this particular Regiment or just general knowledge? incidentally i still have family living around that area.

A Question for Steve: Did you find this information from Joseph Race's service records or was it from a different source? -I could not locate any records apart from the two MIC's for him while searching Ancestry at the beginning of the year but i was trying to find 'lots' of info during the 14 day free trial plus having work etc i might well have missed it.....

John:

i found 'lots' of John race's on the MIC's, (TWO being in the Suffolk Regiment) & it would be great to say it was John G Race Reg No: 201403, the only problem is i have no idea what his middle name was...... Likewise there is another J.B Race in the Suffolk Regiment, Reg No: 17010 but i guess the 'J' could be another name. The census records for either 1891, 1901, 1911 do not say a middle name. I guess a visit to the local parish/birth certificate would hopefully prove fruitful....

A thank you also to Russ T for the info on Arthur Sidney Race & Henry George Race (my Great Grandfather). This info clarifies what i have managed to find out so far. We are lucky to still have my Grandfathers medal plus a 'classification certificate' dated 3/8/16. As previously mentioned i have managed to locate Arthur's Son Malcolm who i have since been in correspondence & met up with, so my 'WW1 Journey' has been well worth it so far. Understandably due to the passage of time Malcolm could not supply me with info on John & Joseph apart from who was who in the photo, hence my post on here.

Thank you again to everybody, hopefully i have worded this post ok & it makes sense! -David.

P.S: Below is a close up of John's cap badge, to be fair it is not much better, but you never know.....

[Guest]

A question for Martin G:

[1] Your answer being he was in the 'Duke Of York's Own Loyal Suffolk (Yeomanry) Hussars' would this still tally in with the detailed reply from Steve?:

[2] Do you have a special interest in this particular Regiment or just general knowledge?

1. The Suffolk Yeomanry, Suffolk Hussars, and to give the units its full title the 'Duke Of York's Own Loyal Suffolk (Yeomanry) Hussars' are all the same thing. Your forbear is wearing a uniform and equipment that is also consistent with mounted troops so there is zero doubt he was in the Suffolk Yeomanry at the time of the photo.

Many Yeomanry regiments were reorganised post 1916 and some were converted into infantry roles. The Suffolk Yeomanry were converted to Infanry and became the 15th (Suffolk Yeomanry) Battalion, the Suffolk Regiment on 5th Jan 1917. It is possible that the Yeomanry was allowed to maintain its own cap-badge and insignia - 'The Loyal Suffolk Hussars - the History of the Suffolk Yeomanry 1794 - 1967' by Margaret Thomas and Nick Sign makes no mention. There is at least one Yeomanry unit which converted to Infantry- the 13th (Scottish Horse) Battalion the Black Watch - that did retain its Scottish Horse badges and insignia whilst serving as a battalion of the Black Watch. Regardless, your man is wearing the right equipment - particularly the bandolier - that the Yeomanry wore when mounted, which helps confirm a date prior to Jan 1917 for the photo.

From one of your suggestions, the man who was in the '1st reserve' battalion of the Suffolk Yeomanry would seem to be a decent fit. This was the second line of the Suffolk Yeomanry and was used to fill gaps in the other units. As the war progressed this became more common, but even at the beginning, men who were very keen to get into first line units might well have volunteered to transfer into these. As a 1st Reserve man, he would have had to wait to be sent as a casualty replacement in the 1/st Suffolk Yeomanry (The 1st Reserve unit became known as the 2/1st Suffolk Yeomanry in Sep 1914, although the '1st Reserve' name may have lingered for some time) Being Territorial Force (TF) , the Yeomanry's terms and conditions of service would have been similar to the TF Infantry, and assuming he had signed the overseas service obligation, it seems likely joined the Yeomanry and was almost immediately transferred (voluntarily) to the Suffolk Regiment TF Bn.

To avoid confusion, whether he was in the 1/1st Suffolk Yeomanry or the 2/1st Suffolk Yeomanry there was a high probability that he would have ended up in the Suffolk Regiment (TF) but at the time of the photo he was definitely in the Suffolk Yeo in my opinion. I wonder if he was encouraged to transfer by his eldest brother.....

I think it reasonably unusual to see all the brothers from different Regiments in uniform together. This suggest a high likelihood that it was taken at or near to the outbreak of war and also suggests that they were likely TF men (except of course the Grenadier - home on leave? Edit: correction. I see he was in the Reserve Battalion and it looks as if he did not serve overseas before the end of 1915 as he has no 1914-15 Star entitlement) who were stationed locally.

2. I have special interest in the Yeomanry in general, particularly those units that fought at Gallipoli such as the Suffolk Yeomanry. I also have interest in the Territorials in general and the Suffolk Territorial Battalions that fought at Gallipoli. I have a very loose connection with Suffolk having gone to boarding school there and also having once lived in Lavenham for a few years. I have also been collecting cap badges for over 40 years which helps slightly with trying to identify the cap-badges.

Regards MG

Any mistakes are mine. Edited for typos etc.

P.s In terms of dating this can not have been taken prior to Aug 1914 as the GG Res Bn was not formed until that date. Given John Race (Suffolk Regt) was born in 1877, that would make him at least 37 at the outbreak of War. He appears to have no rank insigna. He seems rather old to be a private.......and I wonder if he was an ex member of the Volunteers who signed up when war broke out. (the Suffolk Regt had a few Volunteer Battalions formed after 1881 before the formation of the Territorial Force in 1908. The 1st Volunteer Battalion became the 4th Bn (TF) and the 2nd Volunteer Bn became the 5th Bn TF)

PPS. The Suffolk yeomanry also had its HQ at Bury St Edmunds

[Stebie9173]

I have a passing interest in the Suffolk Regiment (two of my great-uncles served in the Regiment), but I have an interest in "forensic records research" - i.e. finding out information on those men for whom service records have not survived. You can sometimes achieve this by reviewing men with similar numbers to observe if patterns of service emerge. As the war progressed it was quite usual for men to be transferred to a different Regiment at the point of arrival in France. Because relatively large numbers were transferred at the same time, the men of these "batches" (my terminology) were numbered in a sequential group. What I have done above is to review service records of the two men listed (202252 Lovick and 202259 Parker) to see if they had any commonalities. As it turns out both served in the Suffolk Yeomanry and were transferred to 1/4th Suffolk Regiment in December 1916 on the dates above. In addition several other members of the 4th Suffolk Regiment with very similar Regimental numbers are listed on Soldiers Died in the Great War as having formerly served in the Suffolk Yeomanry.

This therefore builds an amount of circumstantial evidence, that I am fairly happy with.

As mentioned, No. 202258 J Race appears on a casualty list of men taken POW in 1917. I can only see the barest of information on this source (which is a subscription service) so I cannot tell you anything more detailed than that. Judging by the casualty numbers taken in the 1/4th Battalion's attack on Guemappe at Arras on 23rd April 1917, I would personally start looking around that period in local papers for him being declared as missing and then confirmed as a POW.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

If he is the Suffolk Regiment (202258) Joseph Race who enlisted on 30 November 1915 according to the SWB Roll, the photograph must postdate that date.

Steve.