Greenwoodman Posted 12 November , 2003 Share Posted 12 November , 2003 Looks to go right over or very close to Turco Farm, Annette. This sector (Brigade left subsector) was held by 7th South Staffs when Barratt won his VC there, 27 Jul 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 13 November , 2003 Share Posted 13 November , 2003 Hi Greenwoodman One more reason to save this area. On another subject connected to this dig. I can not see how they (press and powers that be) know the remain of a 5/Northumberland Fus is William Storey. Ianw posted this in an other thread called Five Old Soldiers Found. He is believed to be William Storey 5th Northumberland Fusiliers who died on 26.10.17 and is commemorated at Tyne Cot. An other ranks 5th Territorial N.F shoulder title is the source of the identification and Alie posted the following "Apparently only four members of that unit had gone missing in that sector. Three were officers whose uniforms did not carry such shoulder flashes, leaving William Storey Ian says an other ranks shoulder title is the source of the identification and that William Storey was killed on the 26.10.17 but the 5th Northumberland Fusiliers were in this very area on 24th May 1915. According to the Official History, page 341, the Battalion had one company each with the 5/South Lancs., 1/King's Own, 2/Essex and 2/Royal Irish, 4th Division, who's left flank piveted on Turco Farm. The 5th Northumberland Fusiliers lost 283 men on this day, I do not know how many were killed or how many were missing ? but on the law of average some must have been missing, so the remains may come from 1915 ? I hope those looking into this matter have more then just a shoulder title to identifie him. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 13 November , 2003 Share Posted 13 November , 2003 (...) Ian says an other ranks shoulder title is the source of the identification and that William Storey was killed on the 26.10.17 but the 5th Northumberland Fusiliers were in this very area on 24th May 1915. (...) The 5th Northumberland Fusiliers lost 283 men on this day, I do not know how many were killed or how many were missing ? but on the law of average some must have been missing, so the remains may come from 1915 ? (...) Annette Annette, I have been sceptical too, when I heard the argument "It must be him, for it cannot be anybody else, only one qualifies". However, as I vaguely remembered hearing or reading something about an ID-tag having been found (but not in what source ...) ... As to the question : I happen to know the answer (based on SDGW and CWGC), research I did some months ago. 24-25 May 1915 - 1/5th Bn. Northumberland fusiliers - Battle of Bellewaarde, for this bn. more specifically the part of the front near Mouse Trap Farm - 24 May : 41 fatal casualties, of who 6 have a known grave (New Irish Farm Ypres, and Bailleul (DOWs) ), and 35 on the Menin Gate - 25 May : 7 fatal casualties (4 have a known grave, the DOWs ; 3 Menin Gate) Conclusion : 38 on the Menin Gate (= no known grave). As a rule we can say that of all the Missing in tte Ypres Salient (approx. 100,000) half of them have a grave, but unnamed, this leaves us with : approx. 20 of the missing of the 1/5th Northumberland Fusiliers are still there. (That is the theory, for considering the circumstances and the nature of the battle, and the time (1915) the number may be more than 20.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 13 November , 2003 Share Posted 13 November , 2003 Hi Aurel So its very possibly that the remains may date to 1915, but you mention that a ID-tag may have been found, and if that is correct I'll shut up. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 13 November , 2003 Share Posted 13 November , 2003 Hi Annette, When I heard about the 1/5th Northumberland remains having been found, some weeks ago, my first reaction was : This must be May 1915. Later, to my surprise, I heard : 1917. And I was puzzled. And the "shoulder title" argument did not impress me at all. But then I think I somewhere read that a dog tag had been found. And so I said to myself : "If that is correct, I'll shut up." (Where have I heard these wise words before ? But mind you : my short term memory is failing ! And for the life of me I cannot remember where I read that ! Forum ? Newspaper ? Or am I mixing up things ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 13 November , 2003 Share Posted 13 November , 2003 I was and still am quit sceptical about this. Especially because there are several rumours going around. Aurel heard about a possible Id tag I heard that initials were found on a piece of equipment. Honestly I think we will have to wait what comes out of the investigation of MOD in the Uk. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 13 November , 2003 Share Posted 13 November , 2003 I have just been informed by somebody who has spoken to one of the persons in charge of the excavations, that indeed - as I was afraid of - there may be a mix-up, and that two soldiers were identified (or are about to be). - The 1/5 Northumberland Fusilier, the one with the shoulder titles : by means of elimination. - A second soldier by means of ??? (badge ?, initials ?, service number ?, combination ?) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSeptember1918 Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 I've been following this thread with interest . Some of you have mentioned the possible finding of a I.D. tag ( or dogtag if you wish ) , I was reading once that these I.D. tags were made out of an aliminium type metal and so are normally unreadable when found due to corrosion . Is that correct ? . On the subject of the road to be built , and I guess this isn't going to sound like I care if Battlefields are disturbed , which I do really want them to be preserved . I complained once to a French historian about some roadworks that would encroach on some WWI sites , and his answer was " if you push a spade into French soil , then it is going into a soldier's blood , from some age in time ... Sometimes the living must be thought of first "......It was a powerful arguement , but I do hope that the battlefields survive and that we and many generations have the chance to see them and for the remains of soldiers to be either recovered , or left to lie where they fell , and not be part of a motorway in Belgium . Phil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 Hi Jacky & Aurel It sounds to me, the case of the William Storey reports could be down to the press and TV adding 2 & 2 and comeing up with 5 As you say Jacky we will have to wait what comes out of the investigation of MOD Hi Phil I guess that if the powers that be want to build the road then they'll build it I wonder what the Belgium people in that area want, I know we have to respect their views. Although I can't see why it can not be re-routed to the right, I know it will still pass through areas involved in the war but there are far less trench works. Regards Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Missinne Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 Pilckem Ridge Excavations: The first excavations (made by the I.A.P. - The Belgian Official Institute for Archeology) started a year ago near the crossroads of Moorteltje (N Turco Farm) and 'High Command Redoubt'. There remains of two soldiers were found: -One French soldier (presumed to be killed end 1914-beginning 1915) -One unidentified British soldier (buried at Track "X" Cemetery on 12/09/2003.) The third site to be explored was at the end of the A19-highway. Not much was discovered there, some remains of Canadian Artillery. This site is already closed. Maybe it will be reopened later nearby, based on aerial pictures. Excavations at the 4th site started in March 2003 and works will be finished end of this year. For some pictures of this excavations, see The Great War in Flanders Fields and then click on 'Events' > 'You were there'. For some maps: Exhibition Excavations Pilckem Ridge. Until now remains of 5 soldiers have been found: -One soldier of the 5th Bn. Northumberland Fuseliers. This is the one wich is/was presumed to be the soldier whose name was already on this forum. No personal belongings for identification were found. Identification should have been possible by elimination... -Three soldiers of the same regiment (not the Northumberland Fuseliers) of whom one might be identified by his initials on one piece of equipment ánd his number on several pieces. -One unidentified British soldier (with an oillamp of a bicycle...) It seems to me that publication of a name in the first case has some risks... What about the family? What if this name is not correct? In the second case, it seems to me that identification will be possible with little risks of being wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Missinne Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 I guess that if the powers that be want to build the road then they'll build it I wonder what the Belgium people in that area want, I know we have to respect their views. Although I can't see why it can not be re-routed to the right, I know it will still pass through areas involved in the war but there are far less trench works. People should know that this is 'Flanders Fields': you can't do works in this area without disturbing the old battlefield. Re-routing the highway is not possible by this reason. When people want to stop disturbing the WWI-underground, you have to stop building houses, factories, roads, ... A lot of people in the area want the highway to be extended, because of the traffic-problems in the villages. Others, like farmers, don't want it and would like to have an 'Open landscape'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 It sounds to me, the case of the William Storey reports could be down to the press and TV adding 2 & 2 and comeing up with 5 Annette If this is the case I wonder where they conjured his name from. Was William Storey on some official list as a possible candidate & this was subsequently leaked? I always thought that the naming of remains was only done after rigorous identity checks, or am I being naive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 15 November , 2003 Share Posted 15 November , 2003 Hi Will If this is the case I wonder where they conjured his name from Good point.I always thought that the naming of remains was only done after rigorous identity checks I would have thought this would be so. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 27 November , 2003 Share Posted 27 November , 2003 Interesting documentary today in which senator Jean-Marie Dedekker used the argument that more people had recently died because of the lack of motorway (meaning on that infernal N8 Ypres - Diksmuide road) then the 7 soldiers found now that died almost 90 years ago and that current day lives should prevail over 90 year-old dead. Commemorating the dead is important but should not stand in the way of modern life, he says. A rather valid and forcefull argument, I think. Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 27 November , 2003 Share Posted 27 November , 2003 Marco, What documentary was that ? Dutch TV ? I have just had a look at the listings NED 1 - 2 - 3, but in vain. Or was it on Flemish TV ? Shame on me if it was and passed by unnoticed ... Anyway, this is indeed the argument Senator Dedecker used in our papers a month or so ago. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 28 November , 2003 Share Posted 28 November , 2003 Funny thing to hear that from all people it is Dedecker making this argument. After all, wasn't it him who plead for the abandonment of speed regulations at off-peak hours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now