Somme 1916 researching battle for Guillemont 8th to 11th August 1916

[bernithebolt]

Hi all,

I am researching a Somme battle for Guillemont from 8th August to 15th August 1916. I am particularly focussing on 1/5th battalion, The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment and the trench positions of B and C coys. The Diary shows much confusion during the battle, so detailed trench maps would be imensley useful in looking up the co-ordinates. This is all part of my research into the fate of my Grt Grandfather. Thanks ever so much

Bernithebolt

aka

Clive

[sotonmate]

Bernie

Topic 191062 here (Mar 2013)has a request for Guillemont maps and member YPRES supplied. You could ask him by PM if he can cover your needs.

Sotonmate

[IRC Kevin]

Don't know if these will help you. Excuse the modifications to the trench map (It's scanned and a printed- the original hasn't been touched), which were done to adjust the map to fit in with some contemporary sketches of alterations to trench line and also make some features more visible when I was making a trace.

Second one is sketch map of 1/4th KORL's attack on the 8th. I'm not sure about 1/5th LNL's position, but if they were supporting 1/10th Liverpool Scottish, then it was the same as the sketch map, which shows the situation for the 8th Aug. If they were to the left of Liverpool Scottish (which I think they were) then they were attacking to the North of the sunken road (which is on the line of the modern road). This would make the extreme right of their jumping-off position roughly where Guillemont Cemetery is today.

[bernithebolt]

Bernie

Topic 191062 here (Mar 2013)has a request for Guillemont maps and member YPRES supplied. You could ask him by PM if he can cover your needs.

Sotonmate

---------------

Thanks, big help and your advice noted

regards

bernie

[bernithebolt]

Don't know if these will help you. Excuse the modifications to the trench map (It's scanned and a printed- the original hasn't been touched), which were done to adjust the map to fit in with some contemporary sketches of alterations to trench line and also make some features more visible when I was making a trace.

Second one is sketch map of 1/4th KORL's attack on the 8th. I'm not sure about 1/5th LNL's position, but if they were supporting 1/10th Liverpool Scottish, then it was the same as the sketch map, which shows the situation for the 8th Aug. If they were to the left of Liverpool Scottish (which I think they were) then they were attacking to the North of the sunken road (which is on the line of the modern road). This would make the extreme right of their jumping-off position roughly where Guillemont Cemetery is today.

Super ! that narrows it right down . 1/5th LNL's were mixed up with the L'pool Scots directly in the confusion. Ur a STAR !! BIG BIG HELP !! Regards bernie

[IRC Kevin]

Hi Bernie,

Haven't got round to marking it on the sketch map yet, but one of the big problems the attackers of the 8th faced was a machine gun on a small mound directly opposite A Company's jumping-off point, between the first and second lines of German forward trenches, at a distance of 100 yards from the new belt of wire. Its field of fire covered the advance of all four companies.

regards,

Kevin

[bernithebolt]

Hi Bernie,

Haven't got round to marking it on the sketch map yet, but one of the big problems the attackers of the 8th faced was a machine gun on a small mound directly opposite A Company's jumping-off point, between the first and second lines of German forward trenches, at a distance of 100 yards from the new belt of wire. Its field of fire covered the advance of all four companies.

regards,

Kevin

---------------

Hi kevin, yes the diary reflects that, as well as the four failed attempts. I am actually interested in tracing where C and B coy 1/5 LNLR ended up as the battalion went over the top. The diary shows that contact with them was lost even as they assembled in the trenches. Most damage was caused by that machine gun. the 1/5th actually ended up attacking on the 9th August, but my hunch is that C coy went over too early with the Scottish liverpool's. My grt grandfather survived this attack (in B coy 5th LNLR), but the grt uncle of someone I am helping did not (C coy 5th LNLR)

It seems B coy were attacking on an axis with the Station as its objective, and other coys towards and through the quarry, which would, (correct me if i am wrong) put them in the path of the Mg.

Any additional info would be great. if I had a trench map 1/20000 i could pin point the wareabouts of all coys LNLR with the clear map co-ordinates in the diary

thannks for your input

regards

bernie

[IRC Kevin]

Hi Bernie,

Best I can do for you below. I can't access my CD, but this is a screenshot from the map overlaid onto Google Earth. If the Quarry and Station were objectives, then they should have been north of the road. On the 8th, the tactical bound ran some 10-20 metres to the north of it, so I wouldn't expect they'd have changed this on the 9th. The MG I mentioned wasn't the only one, but gave the men straight in front of it a very hard time. Guillemont was riddled with MGs, though this particular one could have delivered enfilading fire on men to the north of the road, I suspect it was pretty much occupied with the 1/10th to its front. Any gun placed between Waterlot Farm and the Station would have given anyone attacking the station a very difficult time indeed.The station is to the top right of 24d, centre of quarry in 19c.1.3.

Kevin

[wig]

Not your dates and not your regiment, but interesting nonetheless:

http://broadsidesdotme.wordpress.com/2011/12/24/8/

[bernithebolt]

Not your dates and not your regiment, but interesting nonetheless:

http://broadsidesdot...m/2011/12/24/8/

Hi Cpt....

yes very interesting. Thanks for input

Bernie

[bantamforgot]

This may help re. the trench names.

[bernithebolt]

This may help re. the trench names.

thats brill toy soldiet, thankyou. That sheds light on possible locations of B and C coys LNLR on the 8th and 9th. As mentioned in Diary of 1/5th LNLR, many jumping off trenches could not be found, so this helps massively

thanks mate

regards

bernie

[Max Poilu]

Clive, I've researched this going back some years from the 13th Essex POV as I have a family connection (my wife's great uncle was wounded at Waterlot Farm), old topic here with scant info but I'll try and dig out some scans.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=30377&st=0

[bernithebolt]

Clive, I've researched this going back some years from the 13th Essex POV as I have a family connection (my wife's great uncle was wounded at Waterlot Farm), old topic here with scant info but I'll try and dig out some scans.

http://1914-1918.inv...opic=30377&st=0

Hi Max

Thats great. Do you have Diary for this unit for 13 Essex for august 8th to 13th? I am also researching this battle (and many more after it) as part of the research into my family tree. My great Grand dad survived Guillemont (Pte Herbert Swift 1/5th then later 9th btns LNLR) who died at Ypres 17th April 1918 (third battle). I am piecing things together to write up as much detail on his activity/experiences as possible throughout the war, so this is a massive help thanks.- even if its about other regiments in close proximity to Trones Wood 8th to 13th August 1916.

Cheers.

Bernie

[bernithebolt]

Hi Max

Thats great. Do you have Diary for this unit for 13 Essex for august 8th to 13th? I am also researching this battle (and many more after it) as part of the research into my family tree. My great Grand dad survived Guillemont (Pte Herbert Swift 1/5th then later 9th btns LNLR) who died at Ypres 17th April 1918 (third battle). I am piecing things together to write up as much detail on his activity/experiences as possible throughout the war, so this is a massive help thanks.- even if its about other regiments in close proximity to Trones Wood 8th to 13th August 1916.

Cheers.

Bernie

Hi max, just read in more detail- this is all within 500 yards and just north of 1/5th LNLR, who were attacking through the quarry and railway station area in waves. The attack was ill prepared, with C coy having assembled in an unknown trench and there fore resulting in contact with them being lost. Start times were changed at the last minute and orders were verbally issued 5 minutes before the attack. It would appear that C coy was either mixed in with the Liverpool scottish and (or) the 13 Essex, suffering also from the machine gun posts you have researched in your post. If I can help with anything I have the diaries for the 1/5th LNLR + post battle intelligence......great help cheers mate

bernie aka Clive

[bernithebolt]

To all who have helped so far, in my continuing endeavour, I have been able to narrow down the location and events that my Great Grandfather (somehow) survived. Any additions or corrections are very welcome as I am new to this, although I have been researching extensively on an ad hoc basis. Thanks

This post has so far helped to locate where at least 2 companies of the 1/5th LNLR (166th Brigade) should have assembled ready for their 4.20 am attack in support of the 2/5 Lancashire Fusiliers (164th Brigade- attacking at 2.00 am). It appears that A and B coy moved up first, with C and D Coys remaining in the rear- The former 2 Coys getting into position at around 4 PM on the 8th August 16, with A coy probably arriving and awaiting orders in Fagin trench, and B coy arriving there also, but then being ordered by the CO of the 8th Liverpool (Irish) Regiment to move into the forward front line trenches. Zero hour was set for these 2 companies of the 1/5th LNLR at 4.20am on the 9th.

The axis for their attack (1/5th LNLR) to take Guillemont was heading East between the Trones- Guillemont road (right boundary) and the railway track (left boundary), and it was supposed to be a supporting follow up attack after an initial assault by the 164th brigade (or more specifically in front of the Loyals - the 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers who were supposed to attack at 2.00 am, some 2 hours earlier).

In his post battle report, the CO of 1/5th LNL's voiced his concern at 164th's Brigade HQ (on the 7th August) when receiving orders for the 9th August attack, that the assembly trenches were "greatly overcrowded"according to his second in command. Brigade HQ informed him that by the time his battalion arrived in the jumping off trenches, the 2/5th Lanacshires Fusiliers will have vacated the same trenches to launch their four wave attack.

However. according to the same post battle report by the 1/5th LNLR commander, the attack timed for 2.00am by the 2/5th L'shire F'siers (164th Brigade) was subsequently delayed to 4.15am. As a result, both battalions were assembled in the Fagin /Trovis trenches causing great overcrowding and confusion, with only five minutes now separating both 164th Bde and 166th Brigade (support) attacks when it should have been separated by at leat two hours.

I hope any additions, comments, more maps, sketches, copies of orders might shed more light. Photos of 1/5th LNLR would be wonderful, a photo of my great grandfather or his COY (, or platoon, wins a holiday and much much beer thnx

Bernie

[Max Poilu]

Bernie - leave it with me and I will get all the missing scans relating to the 13th Essex re-posted.

[Max Poilu]

Here are the scans:

Report from Papillon:

Report from Captain Round:

[Max Poilu]

13th Essex War Diary:

Regimental History:

[Max Poilu]

Maps:

Lastly, photo taken about 10 years ago now - camera back to Trones Wood, Waterlot farm in distant view:

[bernithebolt]

Maps:

Lastly, photo taken about 10 years ago now - camera back to Trones Wood, Waterlot farm in distant view:

Thanks Max, that's really great ! Helps me no end. If I can reciprocate with anything from the LNL (55th Division) stuff for thos dates, please PM me.

all the best

Bernie/clive

cheers

anything else you can add is always welcome

[bernithebolt]

Bernie

Topic 191062 here (Mar 2013)has a request for Guillemont maps and member YPRES supplied. You could ask him by PM if he can cover your needs.

Sotonmate

thanks, found it. All very useful cheers

[brianmorris547]

Clive

Just marking this so I can find it again. Guillemont is on the 1:25,000 IGN map No 2408E (Bray Sur Somme).

Brian

[Martin Feledziak]

There is an interesting section to be found in a German Book ( Translated into English )

covering 23 August 1916

"My platoon's sector was on the right flank of the regiment's position, and consisted of a

defile hammered by constant shelling into little more than a dip, running through open

country from a couple of hundred paces to the left of Guillemont, to a little less than

that to the right of the Bois de Trones. Some five hundred paces separated us from the

troops to our right, the 76th Infantry. The shelling here was so heavy that nothing could

survive.

Suddenly the Bavarian sergeant had disappeared, and I stood all alone, with my flare

pistol in my hand, in the midst of that eerie cratered landscape, masked now by patches

of creeping fog".

The book can be found here - and the account starts at page 67

http://nazbol.net/li...rm_of_Steel.pdf

[Martin Feledziak]

Interactive map, Can be zoomed in and out and the slider fades out the trench map.

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=50.01349&lon=2.82596&layers=101464777