Artillery rank

[DCLI]

I have just bought a trio for an artillery man. His BWM and his VM show him as a gunner (GNR). His Star has him as an FTR. What is that? And why doesn't the return on my computer produce one on this posting? Many thanks in advance

[Rockdoc]

I'd guess that's Fitter, a Royal Artillery OR who'd do basic maintenance on the guns. I'm pretty sure they were part of the normal establishment.

Keith

[DCLI]

Thanks for that. Exactly what does a gunner do? Is he the one who pulls the lanyard or lays the gun?

[Rockdoc]

No. Gunner is the Artillery rank that's equivalent to a Private. Until this thread, I would have said that Fitter was a trade within the Artillery and that you would have had Fitter Gunners as I know that their NCOs could be called Fitter/Farrier Serjeant, for example. It may be that someone who was accepted as a qualified tradesman dropped Gunner, which appears to have been a general term, and became Fitter Smith, Farrier Jones and so on.

Keith

[FZ1]

Hi Keith,

Driver (Dvr) is also equivalent to a private, but you don't have "Driver Gunner", they are just drivers. Presumably, this means that there is more than one rank in the Artillery equivalent to a private?

Jon

[Scalyback]

Both are privates. Gunner is more technical with the guns, the drivers more the horsemen. Remember all guns(bar the big big ones) are horse drawn. So you need a skill set to get the gun in place then fire it.

If I remember gunners could be drivers in emergency but drivers not gunners. Skill sets and and all that jazz.

[FZ1]

Thanks for the clarification.

Jon

[SFayers]

The Royal Garrison Artillery, in particular, adds some confusion to the mix. Many of the drivers of horse teams, certainly in the early siege batteries that went out to France, were Royal Field Artillery Drivers that were specifically attached to the RGA batteries for this purpose (there were also numerous RFA artificers who were similarly attached to these units). These guys, at least to begin with, seemed to retain their RFA status, Driver trade identification, and RFA number; later in the war when they were officially transferred to the RGA they were given a new RGA number and, in most of the instances I've seen, dropped the trade Driver and became Gunner. Maybe it was a similar practice for RFA artificers in RGA units?

From a much earlier post on the forum I learned that in the regular RGA there were no official RGA Drivers as such, but instead Gunners who were trained-up as drivers (in effect Gunner Drivers), however, they still retained the title Gunner.

I'm not sure what the story was for the Royal Horse Artillery; in this case, of course, the gunners drove the horse teams pulling the gun and ammo limbers as well as serving the gun - so whether these guys in the RHA specifically used the trade name Driver or they all went by Gunner I don't know.

I'm sure more knowledgeable folk on the forum can correct me if my own understanding isn't 100%

Cheers

Steve

[rflory]

Another complication in the RGA concerning drivers is that many of the heavier siege battery guns were towed by motor transport and these were driven by ASC (MT) personnel who were attached to the individual siege batteries, so there was no longer any RGA 'drivers' in those batteries.

[Scalyback]

Gunner ranks and appoitments under sgt. A confusing thing.

[Kitchener's Bugle]

I agree that the rank FTR is fitter. The ranks and specialist ranks within the Artillery are quite expansive.

A driver was a soldier trained in the management and use of horses. The six horses drawing the gun, or wagon, were driven by three drivers, all on the nearside horses, and much training was required before drivers would be rated as competent. The drivers, of course, also looked after the horses and the management, condition and state of health of these animals was regarded as one of the most important functions in the battery.

All branches of the artillery used horses, not just the RHA. By WWII, mechanisation had replaced the horse but the gun limbers, lorries and self-propelled guns all required drivers and the rank remained.

The number of horses meant specialist roles of saddler, farrier, and shoeing smith were used and added to the name of the rank. Horse-drawn equipment needed wheelers and fitters and the officer needed clerks who could write in artillery code and signallers who could send it. Other ranks such as Shoeing-Smith, Shoeing-Smith-Corporal, Farrier-Sergeant, Farrier Quartermaster-Sergeant had already been established prior to the War.

Currently, 148 Battery RA for example, is supported by a Battery Fitter Section from 29 Regiment's attached REME Section.

[DCLI]

Thank you everyone for your replies. It appears artillery ranks is almost a subject to study all of its own.

To expand things further. A battery of say 18 pdrs, would consist of 4 guns. Is that correct?

Would there be a farrier, sadler etc for each battery? When in action what did they do? What is the difference between a farrier and a shoeing smith?

[bill24chev]

Thank you everyone for your replies. It appears artillery ranks is almost a subject to study all of its own.

To expand things further. A battery of say 18 pdrs, would consist of 4 guns. Is that correct?

Would there be a farrier, sadler etc for each battery? When in action what did they do? What is the difference between a farrier and a shoeing smith?

In 1914 regular batteries at full strength i.e.with mobilised reserves had 6X18lb guns.

TF had 4 per battery initially older 15lb guns

Re equipping of the TF and reorganisation eventually brought all Battery strength up to 6X18lb guns.

Of course battle losses would mean a battery was often understrenghth

Edit added some RFA Batterys were equipped with 4.5inch Howitzers

[sw63]

I'm not sure what the story was for the Royal Horse Artillery; in this case, of course, the gunners drove the horse teams pulling the gun and ammo limbers as well as serving the gun - so whether these guys in the RHA specifically used the trade name Driver or they all went by Gunner I don't know.

Steve

Certainly during the Boer War there was a differentiation between Gunner and Driver in the RHA - my GG Uncle was a Driver with "U" Battery at Sannah's Post, where he was taken prisoner.

As for the Great War, I can't say with certainty, but I always believed that a Driver was simply that and not a Gunner. Perhaps they were ammo wagoneers and not riding with the gun teams?

Simon

[bill24chev]

I suspect there was some heated debate between Gunners and Drivers as to who was the most important.

It takes a lot of skill to control horses, carriage and gun at speed over rough ground, this can be seen with Kings troop RHA. Even more difficult with the heavier 18ld'er of the RFA and under fire.

I am unsure of the technical requirements of a Gunner but they would need an under standing of range and fuse settings although I expect the calculations were carried out by Officers or the detachment commander who would normally be a Sergeant.

This begs the question could a Driver eventually on promotions become a detachment commander or would they have role in the more equestrian jobs of supply in the Ammunition Column?

[sw63]

I am unsure of the technical requirements of a Gunner but they would need an under standing of range and fuse settings although I expect the calculations were carried out by Officers or the detachment commander who would normally be a Sergeant.

Whilst certainly true for the Gun Commander , Gun Layers, NCOs, etc - your basic "Gun Bunny" just had to be physically strong enough to repeatedly pick the shell & charge off the cradle and ram it up the breech (remembering to get his hand out of the way before the thing was slammed shut). Another basic job was Marrier who had to place the correct propellant charge bags in the cannister and marry shell and cannister together on the cradle. Although some Gunners would argue there's a lot more to it than that!

So speaks a former Gunner (albeit a very short service one).

Simon

[rolt968]

I suspect there was some heated debate between Gunners and Drivers as to who was the most important.

It takes a lot of skill to control horses, carriage and gun at speed over rough ground, this can be seen with Kings troop RHA. Even more difficult with the heavier 18ld'er of the RFA and under fire.

I am unsure of the technical requirements of a Gunner but they would need an under standing of range and fuse settings although I expect the calculations were carried out by Officers or the detachment commander who would normally be a Sergeant.

This begs the question could a Driver eventually on promotions become a detachment commander or would they have role in the more equestrian jobs of supply in the Ammunition Column?

I had wondered about this myself, and to some extent still do. I know one man who was a driver in 1911 (census), a bombardier (L/Cpl then) in 1914, a sergeant by the end of the war and (probably acting) in 1919 a BSM.

Roger.

[Muerrisch]

There is a bit of misinformation above.

Gunner and Driver were NOT privates, they were Gunner and Driver. The bottom stratum of rank comprised:

Trooper, gunner, driver, sapper, pioneer, private.

RFA: One gun, plus entire complement and horses and ammunition comprised a sub-section, under a sergeant. Two guns were a section, under a subaltern.

The duties of drivers included care of wagons and loading wagons or carts.

Whereas Field Artillery Training 1914 makes no specific provision for training of drivers as gunners, or vice-versa, a substantial part of annual individual training is multidiscipline, such as:

reconnaisance, range-finding, gun drill, laying, fuze setting, equitation, musketry and semaphore. I emphasize this was not the gunners' syllabus, this was the common syllabus.

In 1914 an 18 pdr battery with three sections each of two subs comprised:

Major [the Major was a Commanding Officer within the meaning of KR in that he was responsible to the sovereign for his command and had substantial delegated powers equal to those of a Lt-Col of cavalry and infantry].

Captain

subalterns x 3

Battery sergeant major

battery QM sgt

sergeants 7

farrier sergeant

shoeing smiths x 4

saddlers x 2

fitters/wheelers x 2

trumpeters x 2

corporals x 7

bombardiers x 11

gunners x 75

drivers x 70

batmen x 10

drivers ASC 2

horses x 172

The above omits any provision for the ammunition column

[Ron Clifton]

I'm not sure what the story was for the Royal Horse Artillery; in this case, of course, the gunners drove the horse teams pulling the gun and ammo limbers as well as serving the gun - so whether these guys in the RHA specifically used the trade name Driver or they all went by Gunner I don't know.

Hello Steve

The RHA, like the RFA, had both Gunners and Drivers. Most of the gunners rode on horses rather than on the wagons and limbers as in the RFA, and the drivers rode the draught horses that actually pulled the guns and wagons. RHA gunners god 1d a day more pay than RHA drivers, but in the RFA the pay rates were the same for both. Presumably the extra in the RHA was because they also had to know how to ride!

Ron

[Old Cove]

RFA: One gun, plus entire complement and horses and ammunition comprised a sub-section, under a sergeant. Two guns were a section, under a subaltern.

My wife's grandfather (390 SB in the RGA) noted in his diary that he had been promoted to 'Sergeant in charge of B sub-section'. 390 SB was equipped with 4 x 6 inch howitzers, would that promotion have put him in charge of the entire howitzer crew?

[SFayers]

Hi Ron,

Thanks for clearing that one up for me!

All the best

Steve

[Muerrisch]

Hello Steve

The RHA, like the RFA, had both Gunners and Drivers. Most of the gunners rode on horses rather than on the wagons and limbers as in the RFA, and the drivers rode the draught horses that actually pulled the guns and wagons. RHA gunners god 1d a day more pay than RHA drivers, but in the RFA the pay rates were the same for both. Presumably the extra in the RHA was because they also had to know how to ride!

Ron

When I look at King's Troop RHA it does not look as if the MAJORITY of gunners are horsed ............... are you sure, Ron? Who was going to be the horseholder for all these horses?

Temporarily away from Estabs for RHA, what was the ratio gunners/ riding horses please?

[Muerrisch]

I can now attempt to answer my own query from War Estabs 1914.

An RHA 6 gun 13pdr battery had these provided with a riding horse:

Major captain subalterns x 3 all with two horses each

BSM, BQMS, sergeants x 7, farrier sergeant, shoeing smiths x 6, trumpeters x 2: all one riding horse each.

It now gets complicated:

the 7 corporals, 11 bombardiers and 75 gunners were provided with 64 riding horses between them, allocated as follows >>>>>>>>>

detachments [ie on the six guns] 45 to include horse holders,

1 orderly, commander's 3 signallers, 3 range-takers, leader's 3 signallers, 3 patrol, 6 coverers.

Assuming that the corporals and bombardiers nabbed a horse each, and that all were part of the gun detachments, that leaves 27 for detachment gunners, or a few more than four per gun.

I don't have access to RHA Training manual, so have no idea how a 13 pdr was manned.

[Scalyback]

In reference to RHA. Some did hitch a lift on the gun wagon/limber. I don't think every man had a "saddle" as such.

[Rockdoc]

I'm sure I read somewhere that men of the RHA did not ride on the limber and more of the men were mounted in consequence than for the RFA. The RHA had to keep up with the cavalry, in theory at least, and the weight being towed by the horse-teams was kept to a minimum, which also explains their lighter guns. The RFA did have men allocated to the limber but they only had to keep up with the infantry while on the move.

Keith