Hartmannswillerkopf (Vielle Armand, Alsace)

[Parashooter]

I posted this before and have been diligently searching for trench maps of the above before and since my posting. For those of you who don't know, this mountaintop in the Vosges was occupied and fought over from 14-18 by damn near every combatant of the period, including the Swiss (!!) and Americans. It's my understanding that the Americans used this as a jumping off point for their efforts in Chateau Thierry and the Argonne Forest.

Finding a decent map of any description has been one of the toughest searches I've ever done. I've done quite a few Google Earth surveys of the site and have got a general idea of the layout but nothing specific like a map would yield, notably since the interior of the mountain was riddled with tunnels (i.e. invisible). I've been there a few times since '71 and am going for an extended stay from June until July. To my recollection it seems that during the 14-18 period they blew off 7 metres of the entire mountaintop with artillery.

It's been suggested that I hit St. Cyr's (the French military academy) archives, or those of France in general. I do speak and read French modestly -Canadian, hein? Anyone with any experience here?

Any idea of other nearby battlefields of the period worth checking out?

Parashooter

Mount Albert, ON

Canada

PS I 'found' a couple of interesting items there over the years. A German sniper's parapet shield, caltrops, and spent bullets. The illustration is one of them...a French Lebel 8mm 196Gr. Balle 'D' bronze rifle bullet.

[CROONAERT]

Try the (new) Leclerc hypermarket in Cernay. They have an excellent book shop (in the 'mall' bit outside the usual shopping section) with a good selection of publications (some of which contain pretty decent maps) on the actions in the area.

I've a few French and German trenchmaps from 1915, 1917 and 1918 of the HWK , copies of which have served me well on my visits to the area, but I find them a little 'busy' due to the contour lines on the smaller scale versions, so those found in books and publications may be more useful to you?

Dave

(PS. Vincennes will probably be more fruitful than St.Cyr for you)

[Sly]

Hi,

it might help first: http://centenaire.org/fr/tresors-darchives/cartographie/les-cartes-de-lign

If you're looking for a specific french map of an area you have to know the name of the place first (french maps are named by place whereas I understand the british use a number) to find the "general" map.

Sly

[CROONAERT]

Indeed. In 1:20,000 scale, 'Thann' and 'Soultz' would be required for complete coverage. In 1:10,000 scale it would be 'Le Sudel' (HWK is just on the bottom of this map)

Dave

[Dragon]

Contact l’Abri-Mémoire at Uffholtz which has a specific study centre devoted to le Vieil Armand* / HWK and the Great War in Alsace and the Vosges. It's open Wednesday - Friday 9h to 12h30 and from 14h to 17h30, plus a specific Sunday each month. I have been there; they have an extensive archive from which they will help you find documents, probably even better if you can contact them first. (*Please note spelling if you're having problems searching; there's a mistake in your header.)

You may find the French 14-18 forum more helpful because some Vosges specialists use it.

Also see http://www.ahwk.fr/?lang=en

Some straightforward walking maps http://www.lieux-ins...-18/hwk/hwk.htm

Any idea of other nearby battlefields of the period worth checking out?

You will probably find the HWK battlefield very busy in the period you are going. I would also avoid le Linge for the same reason. It gets heaving with people. If you haven't visited la Tête des Faux (there are two possible ways up, both interesting) or Reichackerkopf (three walks round, see booklet in next paragraph) plus Gaschney and Metzeral, you will probably find them very interesting. Please search on the forum; that should find some threads. I put lots of links in this thread.

A couple of battlefield walks booklets http://www.cc-vallee...php?categorie=8here.

I can recommend buying the new Michelin book Alsace Moselle Les combats du Vosges (guides illustrés Michelin des Champs de bataille 1914-18) for a good choice of suggestions. It's available in hypermarkets but if you want it in advance, Amazon sell it. 10€90.

I too will be returning to the Vosges in June but not HWK.

Gwyn

[healdav]

I posted this before and have been diligently searching for trench maps of the above before and since my posting. For those of you who don't know, this mountaintop in the Vosges was occupied and fought over from 14-18 by damn near every combatant of the period, including the Swiss (!!) and Americans. It's my understanding that the Americans used this as a jumping off point for their efforts in Chateau Thierry and the Argonne Forest.

Only if they would have jumped off from Washington DC in an advance on Seattle.

They are on pretty much oppsite sides of France (and Chateau Thierry has little to do with the Argonne).

[Dragon]

http://centenaire.org/fr/en-france/le-hartmannswillerkopf