Cork RG(R)A supplying soldiers to the front

[stilllooking]

Hi there,

I've been trying to trace my great grandfather's history for many years and some folk on this site have been a great help. I hit a blank a few years back but may have another lead now to look into.

His name was Denis Condon and is listed on CWGC as 3513 5th Bn Connacht Rangers. We always assumed that he would have fought with the Connacht Rangers but he died on 2/1/15 in the King Edward V Hospital in Dublin so now I think it more likely that he was invalided home from France and transfered to the Connacht Rangers as they were based in Dublin at the time. However I have no record of his existence in the medal roll cards or any record of his service over seas. All we have is the family history that he fought in France and of my great grandmother and his parents visiting him in Dublin and he was barely able to breathe before he died of his injuries. Sadly like in a lot of these cases the people who were there did not want to talk about it and are all long gone now.

Recently I've been looking over some other documentation that I collected and came across the Short Service form for a Denis Condon who signed up for the Cork Royal Garrison Reserve Artillary on August 11th 1914.He was aged 23 and from St. Peter and Pauls Parish in Cork which all fits the census records of my GGF. The Connacht Rangers record initally led me to dismiss this as the record of a different Denis Condon from Ireland but that was more a result of my ignorance in researching.

I'm now pretty certain this document is the recruitment form of my great grandfather. The document is unfortunately damaged and may have been part of the burnt records but on the top are written some illegible letters followed by the word Deserted, which may explain why there is no medal roll listing. Also the recruitment or service number is partially destroyed, just the last 3 digits are available .....574.

I have a couple of ideas on how to go forward on this and I would be most grateful to anyone who could offer direction.

1. I can't find any information about the Cork RG®A or otherwise known as the Royal Regiment of Artillery online. Are there any books on this regiment or that mention this regiment?

2. Would the recruitment number also be the same as his service number or would Kew hold an index of recruitment for the Cork RGRA where I might get the full number?

3. I came across one line regarding the RG®A that stated they sent troops to the front to make up numbers in depleted Battalions. Is there any way to find out what regiments the RG®A would have sent troops to?

4. My next step is to try to track down War Diaries for same. I hope they exist.

5. If anyone could suggest any other tips on this I would be willing to look into all avenues. I feel a bit renewed to be honest after searching for so long. One thing on my side is that my unfortunate relative had such a short service, 11/8/14-2/1/15 so I'm hoping I can track down what happened to him. If we could say for certain it was the first battle of Ypres or one of the early conflicts where he was injured it would be great for further research.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and apologies if there are any spelling errors. I know we are lucky we have a grave to visit but would love to clear up the mystery of how he ended up back in Dublin.

Best regards,

Tim.

[ss002d6252]

Its not impossible but it would be more on the unusual side for man to have been out to France and been back home to die on 2 Jan 1915 if he was a territorial or a man without at least some prior military experience.

If he served overseas there should be a medal card for him which shows a date of entry to France earlier than January 1915.

[ss002d6252]

I don't think he is your man in the service records.

It would appear that the D Condon in the service record had deserted and in May 1915 his wife was trying to get a separation allowance paid. I would be surprised if the wife was trying to claim a separation allowance if her husband was dead.

Craig

[stilllooking]

I agree it's a short space of time but not unheard of. As for the medal card, I'm wondering if there is no medal card because of the desertion charge and they may have been forfeited. The only other cause I can think of is a training accident in Ireland but I haven't found any records of same and that it's possible he never got to France. I have to keep an open mind on this one but I'm hoping for proof either way.

[stilllooking]

Hi Craig,

I have the record for that Denis Condon which I assume is the one from the RMF 4421, who deserted on 16/11/16. I'm hoping that the Short service record is for my GGF and not this man. It seems too much of a co-incidence that the Denis Condon of the Short Service record is the same age and from the same area.(But I may well be wrong )

[ss002d6252]

I'm wondering if there is no medal card because of the desertion charge and they may have been forfeited.

There should still be medal index card even if medals for forfeited.

I may be missing something but the only service record that I can see for a Denis Condon enlisting on 11 Aug 1914 in to the RGA is this one for 3574 Condon and a second record for the same man. This is the one I mentioned in my earlier post which indicates the man was still believed to be alive after May 1915 by his wife.

Craig

[stilllooking]

Craig,

Could I ask you for one last favour. Going back through my old census records, he is listed as Denis Conlon of St.Anne's Shandon. I'm not sure where the Condon came from but that is what they were known as, maybe it was a more local version of the name. Could you run that through the system that you are looking at? He is listed as age 9 in the 1901 census and at 21 in the 1911.

Best regards and many thanks.

Tim.

[ss002d6252]

No problem Tim, I'll take a look and see what I can do for you.

Craig

[stilllooking]

I guess this lead didn't work out as well as I'd hoped,. I'll search on and try Condons and Conlons. In fact my GGFs brother who was killed in Gallipoli was listed as Concon so hopefully the info I seek is out there somewhere.

Thanks again for your help.

[kevinrowlinson]

Tim,

3574 Denis Condon attested at Dublin on the 11th August 1914 . He married Kate Galvin on the 7th February 1914 and lived at 5 Blackwell Lane, Cork. He is reported to have deserted around the 3rd Oct 1914 and I would guess that it was when he was posted to 6 Coy.

Do you have his death certificate? It may answer some of your questions.

Kevin

[stilllooking]

Kevin,

That is some of the best news I've gotten in a long time. It proves that he is the Denis mentioned in 3574. Kitty Galvin is indeed my Great grandmother and the 5 Blackwell lane is the family home. Can I ask where you got your information from and why you would believe the desertion date to be around 3rd Oct 1914.I was onto the Births/Deaths office in Co.Meath this morning so I'll be requesting the death cert next week.

Also you mention 6 Coy, is this what is mentioned at the top of the short service form that is cropped in the copy I have? I would really like to know how you linked all the information.

Thanks a million.

I still don't know if he got to France from this but it is a big help.

I'm also going to have to look into the birth certs of my Grand Aunt May and Grandmother Bridget. Kitty was pregnant with Bridget when Denis died so maybe May was born out of wedlock but all that is an aside.

Kevin, you mention that he attested in Dublin, whereas the cert I have, which is the same as the one Craig linked to said that he attested in Cork. Maybe he wasn't based in Fort Westmoreland so but based in Dublin and deserted to get home, ( or just had enough, who knows). I'm assuming there aren't many records of Court Martials if the event doesn't occur on active service.

[kevinrowlinson]

Tim,

I should have written Cork. I was looking at various other searches at the time, one being for 3004 Michael Murray also of the 5th Btn. Connaught Rangers; http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/900375/ .

You should download all D. Condon's service papers not just the attestation form. It shows Mary May being born 26th June 1914.

I notice you have previously asked about your relative, http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=124306&st=50 , and Mark's answer tells you that the 5th Btn. was in Dublin at that time. I think it highly unlikely that he went overseas.

Obtaining his death certificate would be your best option.

kevin

[stilllooking]

Hi Kevin,

I agree with yourself and Craig that it is unlikely that he was overseas at this stage but it would be nice to see what happened to him. As you say, getting the death cert next week may shed some light. Can I ask are you guys getting all your info from Ancestry? I was a member in the past but let it lapse so I'll just sign up again if all this information that I didn't see last time is on it. As I mentioned earlier, I was quite blinkered in my searches in the past, ignoring anything that didn't have Connacht Rangers on it. I didn't come on to ask people to do my research for me, I just thought I had exhausted that avenue.

I can't wait to see what other records are available. I'm still looking at this blind, all I see is (i) a Denis Condon who was 3574 and (ii) a Denis Condon 3513 who married Kate Galvin and lived in Blackwell lane Cork, died 2/1/15. I've never seen a document with both these references on the same doc or a definite connection.

Thanks to both of you for your help. I may ask you guys just to leave me know if there are any other sources you got your info from.

Best regards,

Tim.

[stilllooking]

D'oh, just looked back over Ancestry to find there were 19 pages there, not one and there is a next button. This throws a lot of light on the subject. Thank you very much to both of you.

Interestingly Denis is down as transferred to 6 Coy on 12/10/14 and then listed as absent from RGA from 20/10/14 to 26/10/14. Anyway, that is minor stuff. It's great to be able to start putting the jigsaw together.

[ss002d6252]

not one and there is a next button. This throws a lot of light on the subject. T

That get's a lot of people (including me originally).

Craig

[stilllooking]

Yeah I felt pretty dim last night after spotting that one. Cheers for the help though. I won't do much till I get the death cert and see if that shines any light on the subject. 6 Coy is a term that interests me though. If it was 6 Company RGA it would have been Northern Gibraltar but I don't see why he would be sent there except to deter continual desertion. It would answer why the family thought he went off to war when in fact it was just to another Home defense. It could also explain the lack of medals.

As for my great grandmother still claming Seperation Allowance five months after he died, I could well see that happening. They came from a tenement area with almost no income so I don't think my family would have notified the war office to tell them to stop sending the cheques for 3574 if he wasn't listed as deceased yet. It's probably Denis' pay was stopped when he died (numbered 3513) but it might of taken some time for the paperwork to follow that both numbers were the same man, hence to stop the allowance so I'd say she would have claimed it for as long as she could. Interestingly enough, Mary May and also my Grandmother (who Kate was expecting at the time - I'm thinking that conception may have co-incided with a period of desertion )were raised by Denis' parents and sister Annie after he died and Kate moved to Belfast to start a new life. She married a man named Carson, Frank Carson's uncle and my Grandmother always commented about how loud her cousin was, even as a boy. Anyway if the police came looking for Kate after to get their separation moneys back, I'm afraid she was long gone.

I'll let ye know how the death cert goes but thanks again for everything.