David_Blanchard Posted 14 May , 2013 Share Posted 14 May , 2013 I am trying to find the OP Wagram that is mentioned in an account of the stand made by the 5th Battery 45th Brigade RFA on the 27th May 1918. I have a feeling that this position was to be found in the Bois des Buttes or very close to this wood. I have looked at a couple of trench maps from 1917 and 1918 and have yet to find it. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Blanchard Posted 29 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 29 July , 2015 Just bumping this up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 30 July , 2015 Share Posted 30 July , 2015 I think we are on a loser here David but I do feel the place you showed me makes the most sense. Still looking through French sources though. On another tack we have made contact with the French Army officer who is being made responsible for coordinating the commemorations in 1917 on the Chemin des Dames. Could be very very useful. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 30 July , 2015 Share Posted 30 July , 2015 I am trying to find the OP Wagram that is mentioned in an account of the stand made by the 5th Battery 45th Brigade RFA on the 27th May 1918. I have a feeling that this position was to be found in the Bois des Buttes or very close to this wood. I have looked at a couple of trench maps from 1917 and 1918 and have yet to find it. David My grandfather was captured there on that day whilst in 2/Middlesex. Here is a French map for that day, I have marked in blue the line I think 2/Middlesex held, but sadly I do not see an OP Wagram. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Blanchard Posted 30 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 30 July , 2015 Hello Howard, Enclosed map from War Diary of CRA 8 Division for May 1918 which shows positions of 2 Mddlesex to the north and east of La Ville aux Bois. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 31 July , 2015 Share Posted 31 July , 2015 Hello Howard, Enclosed map from War Diary of CRA 8 Division for May 1918 which shows positions of 2 Mddlesex to the north and east of La Ville aux Bois. Many thanks for that, the 2/Middlesex diary has only somewhat confused details- no wonder considering what happened! Here are parts of two of the French sheets with yours overlaid, the positions match well with the marked trenches. It is squashed to get below max file size, if you need a higher res, I can arrange it, but I still cannot see an OP Wagram. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 31 July , 2015 Share Posted 31 July , 2015 To get the positions, I had taken the broad lines on this (undated) French strategic scale map and assumed they ran along existing trench lines. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 31 July , 2015 Share Posted 31 July , 2015 PS. If you look at the current Google Earth view of the area, there are a great number of trench marks still visible. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 31 July , 2015 Share Posted 31 July , 2015 David, OPs rarely seem to appear on trench maps (except of course for enemy OPs), they are much more likely to be found on those maps used by artillery or signals. If you can find one of those you may find it. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyinthesky2 Posted 1 August , 2015 Share Posted 1 August , 2015 David I have nothing to help from 1st Bty accounts, but I am still digging. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 1 August , 2015 Share Posted 1 August , 2015 Peter David and I have been through every artillery map we can find, including a lot of French and German ones as that is who probably named the point. We do now have an inkling due to the name of a bunker in the wood. There could have been a name change by the Brits who misread the name of the bunker. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 1 August , 2015 Share Posted 1 August , 2015 Jim, if the name is Wagram, it is most likely French: a Napoleanic victory over the Austrians at Wagram, near Vienna, in 1809. They used this name, also Solferino, Malakoff, Leipzig etc, other French victories over the Germans/Austrians for the farms around Boezinghe in 1915. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Blanchard Posted 1 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 August , 2015 Hello All, Thanks for your help. Just back from Chemin des Dames- and the hassle of Calais. The only outstanding artillery WD of a unit based in the Bois des Buttes on 27 May 1918 is the 33rd Brigade- which I think I may have- but I think I have checked to see if OP Wagram is mentioned. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Blanchard Posted 1 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 August , 2015 Just to show why trying to establish OP Wagram actually was in May 1918 is of interest not only in respect of the position of 45 Brigade RFA but also this was the area where the 2 Devons made there famous stand on 27 May- (from 45 Brigade WD) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 1 August , 2015 Share Posted 1 August , 2015 Just to show why trying to establish OP Wagram actually was in May 1918 is of interest not only in respect of the position of 45 Brigade RFA but also this was the area where the 2 Devons made there famous stand on 27 May- (from 45 Brigade WD) The reports of the fighting here seem quite confused but the 2/Devons were next to 2/Middlesex, report on my website here. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Blanchard Posted 1 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 August , 2015 Howard, In my new book Aisne 1918, I have devoted over ten pages to the actions in the Bois des Buttes in May 1918. This is quite controversial and attempts to demonstrate that it wasn't only the Devons who fought valiantly. Amongst other documents I have used about 15 reports from officers files from the Middlesex Regiment. I think you would find this section of the book of interest. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Blanchard Posted 2 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 2 April , 2018 I think the position Wagram is actually the Wagner tunnel home to 2 Devons in the Bois des Buttes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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