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IWM Lives of the Great War Project - reservations

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Tom Lang

Hi Tim,

Don't be saddened, as I said I am a fan but want to see the "User agreement" or the nitty gritty that is not addressed in the FAQ's.

Why inhabit such a forum such as this, simple really, a burning passion for this period in history, the help I have received in the years gone by from members of this forum has been of great help, similarly the help I have been able to give others I hope has been similarly received by those I have helped!!, the key is I suppose the years that one has been on this forum. Posting of information, where the information can be "pirated" made without thought to this aspect in the willingness to help others as I have been helped. And, I may add a long long time before the IWM came out with this idea. No, I am not a fan of yet another paysite, at least the dreaded "A" and others had to pay for the information before launching their paysites and had not been given everything gratis but expect people to pay.

So, yes I do want to know the details, fully!! before committing myself, is that too much to ask???

"Gratis, a significant research database" but we will wait and see how significant this will be given that access to areas will be chargeable, one presumes from the organisations mentioned before that have given their time freely. This is the commercial aspect, yet another pay site??? with material that has been given freely??

Please do not get the wrong idea from this, I am a fan, but, I am afraid that I will wait to see the "User agreement" and the enclosed details before I make the decision to participate or not, I personally do not think that is too much to ask.

Andy

Andy,

I'll bet that any such "User Agreement" also has a clause that reads something like:

"This agreement can be amended at any time without prior notice or approval".

Or words to that effect.

This just means that anything else in the "User Agreement" has just been cancelled.

We live in a capitalist society and that requires profit to be made, even to 'cover expenses' (of however much, and those that can't be explained).

If MPs can find a way to 'fiddle' their expenses, I'm sure others will find a way to 'fiddle' this project.

"There's no such thing as a free lunch".

Tom.

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tn.drummond

Hi Tim,

Don't be saddened, as I said I am a fan but want to see the "User agreement" or the nitty gritty that is not addressed in the FAQ's.

Why inhabit such a forum such as this, simple really, a burning passion for this period in history, the help I have received in the years gone by from members of this forum has been of great help, similarly the help I have been able to give others I hope has been similarly received by those I have helped!!, the key is I suppose the years that one has been on this forum. Posting of information, where the information can be "pirated" made without thought to this aspect in the willingness to help others as I have been helped. And, I may add a long long time before the IWM came out with this idea. No, I am not a fan of yet another paysite, at least the dreaded "A" and others had to pay for the information before launching their paysites and had not been given everything gratis but expect people to pay.

So, yes I do want to know the details, fully!! before committing myself, is that too much to ask???

"Gratis, a significant research database" but we will wait and see how significant this will be given that access to areas will be chargeable, one presumes from the organisations mentioned before that have given their time freely. This is the commercial aspect, yet another pay site??? with material that has been given freely??

Please do not get the wrong idea from this, I am a fan, but, I am afraid that I will wait to see the "User agreement" and the enclosed details before I make the decision to participate or not, I personally do not think that is too much to ask.

Andy

Andy

Passionately put.

My point about being a member of this forum was intended rhetorically i.e if happily posting here what is he difference to posting on the IWM project ? I'm not retracting the comment but agree it was not put as clearly as I intended.

There is also a question of emphasis to be addressed. If I do end up paying to access the site in the future then what I'll be paying to access is not my contribution but the contribution of others. I have to pay to go into Salisbury Cathedral, I'd rather not but I'm glad it's there and maintained.

I support the project and will be contributing free or not.

Thanks

Tim

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lukesmith

Hello Everyone,

As before, I'd like to say that I can understand all your reservations. I would share some of them, if I were in your position. And I'd like to reiterate that all will become clear in time, including the complex issues around the user agreement.

On a personal (and less positive) note, I strongly object to the suggestion that we might 'fiddle' the project in some way -- I don't think anyone, anywhere would appreciate an unfounded assertion of this kind. Particularly those of us who are passionate about what we do and have already expended significant effort on this project.

Nonetheless, we remain committed to incorporating your feedback, including your considered reservations. As I said earlier, the Great War Forum is the only place where we are part of a public conversation at this early stage.

regards,

Luke (Smith)

IWM

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stiletto_33853

Andy

Passionately put.

My point about being a member of this forum was intended rhetorically i.e if happily posting here what is he difference to posting on the IWM project ? I'm not retracting the comment but agree it was not put as clearly as I intended.

Thanks

Tim

Hi Tim,

Understand fully what you are saying here, however, is this IWM project solely to be a database or interactive??, i.e. I enjoy the banter of this forum sometimes and over the years have had some heated discussions, great interaction with other people researching a similar area and some ribald joviality. There are numerous threads I could point out that have involved some great collaboration between members, with expertise in certain areas or Regiments, and achieved some stunning results. This to me is far more enjoyable and beneficial than a database, although there is no denying that if completed properly it would be of benefit to all. As Luke is so fond of saying "all will become clear in time" just do not hang on too long before that time limit becomes onerous and we all start to yawn.

Regarding the database aspect, we have all seen or known people that have put years of research onto the web only for it to be pirated for commercial gain!! so as mentioned time and time again I will await the details and this before I commit.

Andy

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Sunnylew75

I'm more of Tim's mindset.

Whenever anyone asks me for family history information I always remind them that it's not just my family. In the UK, twenty generations back and we're all related!

I've had the odd twinge when people have ransacked a profile in my tree for pictures that have been in my family for a hundred years, and I've spent up to 8 or 9 hours on each for digital repair.

Then I realise that the truth is, my wife's not too interested, and neither are my friends - this is only my hobby, though I'm astounded that they're not fascinated by it.

Yet I can help out someone else who has the same passion, or maybe who doesn't, but may generate an interest in the same things that I do. That's got to be worthwhile.

Seeing my work in a book on a shelf would give me the shivers - but in this project all that IWM are after is sources in the end. They can be unverified oral tales and letters or they can be matters of public record.

It's an incredible amount of work creating the story behind a series of sources, and this is the component that would be painful for me to see taken advantage of. but I don't think anyone is obliged to offer up their creative labour.

I don't think IWM are after the personal tales we've woven - though of course they would be wonderful additions to the memorial.

What they need is the collecting together of sources so that the stories may be told.

If someone wants to retell a person's life based on the sources I've collated I'm not too worried - how many biographies are there of Elvis? They're all going to be different viewpoints which may add to a story closer to truth.

Just as I don't own my great grandfather, neither do I own his uncle's unit, and I'd be glad for someone else to make something of the facts.

As they say, "Every day's a school day." I might learn something new.

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hazelclark

Well said!

H.C.

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Guest

I am researching 66 men. I have 90% or more of all information available from birth certificates, wedding certificates, death certificates, census returns 1881, 1891, 1901, and 1911, of the men. I also have same of all information from siblings ( in some cases 8 siblings), and parents wedding certificates etc. All this information was from the " Scotlands People " site (Bright Solid) and was not cheap, and included many wasted credits on guesswork, as the information given was (deliberately?) too vague to be certain I had the right person.

I am now being asked to (almost) give it back to Bright Solid for nothing.

Mike

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Sue Light

You're not being asked to do anything with it at all. People are being given an opportunity to add information about men and women in the Great War - it's an optional exercise. If people already have websites or books etc., etc., then I'm sure there would be some facility to have a link from the IWM website to the relative entry. What would be a pity is for someone to do all the research, spend all the time and money, and then just sit at home looking at it, with no way of getting the information to interested parties. If you want it to be available for free, or if you want to re-coup some money from your research, then get it into the public domain asap - website or book. Then just ignore the IWM initiative - it's not compulsory and I'm sure they won't be sending the heavies round to your door.

Sue

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Guest

Lighten up Sue :) Notice " ( almost ) "

In a previous post, I said I probably would come on board, after I had done what it is I am doing. And I probably will. I can still feel slightly ****** off that it cost me quite so much, can't I?

I ain't gonna fall out with you over it. I want all to be sweetness and light :hypocrite:

Mike

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Sue Light

Mike - no, I'm not having a go at you at all, but so many people on here do seem to be seeing demons in the project. What I see throughout this Forum are a great many people doing a mass of research but often with no end result for the public and no real outlet for their work. Some might want to keep it that way, but for many this will be a real opportunity.

I'm one of the villified few who have gone down the road of selling my soul to genealogy providers. A great deal of my research is now available to the public and I get a very small amountof money in return. People have to pay to see the results of my labours, because it's simply too large and complex for me to cope with myself. I offer it to the public; they pay for it; I get a small cut. I've never been interested in the money, but If I didn't do it that way then it would never see the light of day. And if anyone ever wants any of that information by contacting me direct, then it's freely given. At the end of the day it gives me great pleasure to know I've made it available by whatever route.

Sue

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Guest

Sue, when someone like yourself is all for it, then I think that is what will make it succeed. I am not explaining myself very well, but honestly, money is not the problem. I do resent the way Scotlands People have their search set up, in such a way, that guessing, at times is almost the only way ahead. For a common name, that can mean guessing many times, and if unlucky, possibly more than 10-20 times.

I honestly do hope it is a success, as the intention is honourable. How they are going to dot all the " i's ", and cross all the " t's " I can't imagine?

Mike

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Sue Light

I honestly do hope it is a success, as the intention is honourable. How they are going to dot all the " i's ", and cross all the " t's " I can't imagine?

No, like some others, I'm well aware that there's an awful lot of poor family history today, so it will only be as good as the skills of the contributors.

Sue

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hazelclark

Sue, when someone like yourself is all for it, then I think that is what will make it succeed. I am not explaining myself very well, but honestly, money is not the problem. I do resent the way Scotlands People have their search set up, in such a way, that guessing, at times is almost the only way ahead. For a common name, that can mean guessing many times, and if unlucky, possibly more than 10-20 times.

I honestly do hope it is a success, as the intention is honourable. How they are going to dot all the " i's ", and cross all the " t's " I can't imagine?

Mike

I'm with you on the subject of "Scotland's People". I have spent a fortune, in many cases to no avail, as the results are not the people I'm looking for. So i do see your point although like Sue, I think the IWM proposal is wonderful if it works.

Hazel

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Tom Lang

Hello Everyone,

As before, I'd like to say that I can understand all your reservations. I would share some of them, if I were in your position. And I'd like to reiterate that all will become clear in time, including the complex issues around the user agreement.

On a personal (and less positive) note, I strongly object to the suggestion that we might 'fiddle' the project in some way -- I don't think anyone, anywhere would appreciate an unfounded assertion of this kind. Particularly those of us who are passionate about what we do and have already expended significant effort on this project.

Nonetheless, we remain committed to incorporating your feedback, including your considered reservations. As I said earlier, the Great War Forum is the only place where we are part of a public conversation at this early stage.

regards,

Luke (Smith)

IWM

Hello Luke,

I used the term 'fiddle' to highlight the possibility for someone to take advantage of the information.

I did not intend to make a slur on the staff at IWM, but intended to show what may explain 'human greed'.

Please allow me to explain.

In an earlier career I was a police officer and detective in the CID.

I once fingerprinted the hands of a safe-blower who I arrested for his use of a thermal lance in the cutting open of a bank safe door.

His fingers were manicured, with soft skin and no callouses. He had never done a hard day's work in his life.

From the dock at the High Court, when asked to give state his occupation, he arrogantly said "professional criminal".

He and his cronies stole £63,000.00 and only £2,100.00 was recovered.

I concluded that 'crime pays'.

I have pulled the murder weapon from the back of a deceased victim, to label it as evidence.

I cannot explain in words how it physically feels to do that.

Since that day, a pair of scissors became more than just a household utensil to me.

I once arrested the Major in the local Salvation Army.

He had 'fiddled' and squandered £28,000.00 of the Salvation Army money that was being kept in an account to buy new band instruments.

I concluded that if there's a 'fiddle' in the Salvation Army, then there can be a 'fiddle' anywhere.

I have never contributed a penny to the Salvation Army since then.

I could go on and on about my education, spent 8 - 10 hours daily, getting some people into trouble, and some people out of trouble.

I was 'trained' to be a cynic and suspicious of all things.

The IWM Project is just a new one for me to pry into and see what I can find.

Little is known so far, so the possibilities are endless.

I do hope you also saw my posting re the 'User Agreement'. Once the lawyers are involved, we'll be off to the races (and I don't mean that you'll all be going to Royal Ascot).

The 'legalese' will be in the 'small print' as always.

I hope you now understand better why I made my comment about MPs 'fiddling' their expenses. Though not all did.

I said "If MPs can find a way to 'fiddle' their expenses, I'm sure others will find a way to 'fiddle' this project."

My use of the word "others" was not about you or the staff at the IWM. But now that you've mentioned it... hmmm...

My cynicism allows me to see the world through my eyes.

You, on the other hand...

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

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tn.drummond

I was 'trained' to be a cynic and suspicious of all things.

The IWM Project is just a new one for me to pry into and see what I can find.

Little is known so far, so the possibilities are endless.

I think a question of perspective needs to be employed here and I certainly do not think the IWM project needs to be coupled with the crimes you are recanting.

The degree of cynicism seems particularly unwarranted and Luke and the IWM should be assured it is an individual opinion that is not indicative of us all;

As I said, I am saddened by this thread.

Tim

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Guest

Tim, I'm pretty sure Luke's motives are not being questioned?

Mike

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Tom Lang

I think a question of perspective needs to be employed here and I certainly do not think the IWM project needs to be coupled with the crimes you are recanting.

The degree of cynicism seems particularly unwarranted and Luke and the IWM should be assured it is an individual opinion that is not indicative of us all;

As I said, I am saddened by this thread.

Tim

Hello Everyone,

As before, I'd like to say that I can understand all your reservations. I would share some of them, if I were in your position. And I'd like to reiterate that all will become clear in time, including the complex issues around the user agreement.

On a personal (and less positive) note, I strongly object to the suggestion that we might 'fiddle' the project in some way -- I don't think anyone, anywhere would appreciate an unfounded assertion of this kind. Particularly those of us who are passionate about what we do and have already expended significant effort on this project.

Nonetheless, we remain committed to incorporating your feedback, including your considered reservations. As I said earlier, the Great War Forum is the only place where we are part of a public conversation at this early stage.

regards,

Luke (Smith)

IWM

Tim,

I was explaining my cynicism to Luke.

He said he "... strongly objected...".

He didn't just "object", he "... strongly objected...".

I thought his comment was worthy of a response, and the best response is my explanation for my 'fiddle' comment.

My 'recanting' is a minor part of my cynicism, an attempt to explain my use of the term, and but a small sample of my experiences of life and human greed.

Time will tell if this project is a success. I've seen otherwise.

I've also just read that the BBC have just cancelled their £100 million digital project.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...t-arts-22651126

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

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stiletto_33853

Mike - no, I'm not having a go at you at all, but so many people on here do seem to be seeing demons in the project. What I see throughout this Forum are a great many people doing a mass of research but often with no end result for the public and no real outlet for their work.

Sue

Hi Sue,

A valid point, in my own case there is an end goal in mind someway down the road, be that years away (quite possibly) or a decade, who knows?.

As stated I am a fan of the project and I am not seeing demons, however I do want to see the detail, is that too much to ask? Personally I do not believe that it is, after all this project is asking something of us, now I am asking something of them, however I get told it will all come out in time!!! then I will await this mystical time. I would have thought that the IWM & Bright Solid has a good idea of this user agreement or what they want to put into place already and maybe are just sounding out the waters from people that can be of great help in this project.

Yes, I do want to know Bright Solids level of involvement also, given what people have said regarding the Scotlands Peoples costs and their apparent poor search facility. Once again is that an unreasonable request??

Andy

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keithmroberts

Andy

Of course people want to see the exact terms. I suspect from my previous life, that while the IWM and Brightsolid will have a pretty good idea of the final wording and even a well reviewed draft or several, they will not involve any major departure from the information in the FAQ but will pass through umpteen reviews before final publication. That will take time, and they will be public before any of us is asked to upload a single item. Once the terms are officially posted, and the final changes made to software to ensure that they are reflected precisely in design, then we will have them.

There shouldn't be any surprises - the FAQ on the website are in effect the main points of the agreement and plan. The financial side will be absolutely clear as it will affect users, but the actual contracts between the IWM and Brightsolid as well as other suppliers of data will surely remain commercial in confidence.

The timing of the announcement will have been fixed as part of an agreed timetable, and the next stage, a limited roll out including t&C will also have a provisional date which will depend on the internal testing of software, as well as perhaps external factors.

I'm enthusiastic about this. I have been working for years now on some 540 men, and still have a lot to do on those who survived the war. Like many others I'll be relieved to have a mechanism to secure the safety of my work for the future.

Keith

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Guest

Slide show

Will we be able to copy and paste most of the information? It isn't possibe to do so with Bright Solid's, excellent, British Newspaper Archive, though I can understand why.

Mike

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Auimfo

Tom,

Like you I have been a police officer (for 25 years in Australia), the last few as a crime scene analyst, and we've no doubt seen similar amounts of the worst the world has to offer and done things we'd much rather forget. But I don't think that entitles us to claim a corner on the cynicism market outside of work. I consider myself a realist but certainly have no intention of allowing myself to worry about the worst possible scenario of everything that pops up - that's not my idea of enjoying life!!

I prefer to initially take things at face value (albeit a bit cautiously at times) and make my own judgements as things develop. I don't see the point of being unnecessarily critical or negative about something before it even gets started unless there's a blatant flaw to the whole idea.

The people from the LGWP are here on this forum to better understand how this project might work to everyone's advantage. Let's give them the benefit of our ideas and combined wealth of knowledge in a positive way to try and bring about a worthwhile result.

Cheers,

Tim L.

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Roger H

Tom

You say time will tell if this project is a success. Exactly. Why don't you just wait for more information?

Roger

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Chris_Baker

No one is obliged to add anything to the "Lives" database. If, once the terms are clear, anyone feels uncomfortable about adding material then no one is going to force them to do so. As with Oxford University's Europeana project, it is to be hoped that people will contribute and many fragments of information and documents will surface which would otherwise have been hidden in files at home. I am sure many of us will contribute and be very proud of the fact. It is surely a very positive thing that will assist our understanding of the individual, their comrades, their units and the war. I understand that someone who has built up a database of many individuals may be reticent to contribute the details, but unless they plan to publish it themselves or the "Lives" terms really do give cause for concern, why not? Personally I look forward to seeing how this will develop.

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Roger H

Chris: Spot on!

Roger

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Brian Curragh

A superfluous point - I do not think anyone is remotely confused by the voluntary nature of this laudable exercise - but concerns about the future (commercial) use of material uploaded & the distinct possibility of having to pay another online subscription are entirely valid IMHO.

Regards

Brian

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