18-lbr. Shellcase Markings request

[clive_hughes]

Hi folks,

I've had an 18-pounder shellcase since I was a teenager in the early 70s, the slim fruit of a very long day spent at an auction where my father was hoping to get some antiques. Someone had cut it down to about 6 inches height and nickel-plated it, possibly to act as a fire-iron holder. I know these queries turn up frequently, but just for my own interest can any more be said about it from the markings than the following? -

18-pounder, Mark 2 1915

Striker No.1 / III March 1917

To clarify, at 2 o'clock position next to the striker is a small rectangle with DAG. Diamond marking with JM at 3 o'clock. Another rectangle just below it contains either CLS or something similar (middle letter/figure is set lower than the other two).

Thanks,

Clive

[TonyE]

Your case was originally made by the Elswick Ordnance Company ("EOC" at 3 0'c, a subsidiary of Vickers) in 1915. It was filled with a full charge ("CF" at 6 o'c) and fired. It was then returned and annealed ("A" in circle at 12 o'c), schleroscoped ("S" under the "1915", an early type of X-ray) and reloaded with a reduced charge ("R" on the edge at 5 o'c). The other monograms are from firms that carried out the work but I cannot identify them.

The primer (not striker, that is the firing pin in the gun) was made by P.L.W. Ltd in March 1917, but again I cannot identify PLW. The reloading explains why a 1915 case has a 1917 primer.

Hope that helps,

Regards

TonyE

[clive_hughes]

That's smashing Tony, thanks for taking the trouble to enlighten me!

Clive

[Guest timmy_tarmac]

Hi there I have what I think is a little unusual 18 pdr shell casing I didn't know if I should start a fresh post with a picture or tag on this so tell me if im in the wrong. Ok so if anyone can tell me a little bit more about some of the marks on the bottom of the shell I would be gratefull as I have owned this a few years and don't know a great deal about it.

So what I do know it's an 18 pounder mark 2 shell case base, I presume the AE stamped at 7 o'c was a makers mark (Allen Everitt), Like you added from the previous post (TonyE) annealed and schleroscoped but obviosly not reloaded with reduced charge (no R) and there is an anchor does that mean it was used for nautical purposes?.

What does the K mean? Cry? and some of the other random numbers?

Lastly It looks like Allen Everitt & Sons adapted this to an ashtray with advertising on it to sell there brass and copper tubes (pipes I guess) but I couldn't find any information on them or find any more of these when I searched the net.

This is a good site that I have just found and learned 3 bits of info I didn't know before today from previous and this post thanks TonyE any help would be great thanks Tim

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y449/timmy_tarmac/shellcase2020_zps47b9c3e8.jpg

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y449/timmy_tarmac/shellcase2019_zps217dc91e.jpg

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y449/timmy_tarmac/shellcase2018_zps7f0ee272.jpg

[auchonvillerssomme]

This will give you a general idea.

Mick

[TonyE]

I have not had much luck with this one.

It was originally made by Kynoch, Birmingham (K) and filled full charge (CF). It was then refurbished and annealed and schleroscoped by "CRY" which I cannot identify but may have been one of the railway company workshops, It was then reworked and refilled full charge (second F).

It came back, presumably to Allen Everitt where it was made into the ashtray.

I have seen the anchor on several 18 Pr. cases but it has nothing to do with naval service. I think it is an inspection station monogram.

Not much help I am afraid!

Regards

TonyE

[Guest timmy_tarmac]

Thanks for your info tony and auchon. As to CRY couldn't find info on them could it be "Contractor RY". I have found a little more info about AE & SONS they joined ICI with kynochs in 1926/29 so they may have done some work on the shells originally might have had a surplus to turn into ashtrays but can't find any pictures anywhere or items for sale that match my item I might sell it but only with a reserve. Thanks for your help guys

[damien allan]

Hello Gents, I looking for a comprehensive list of manufacturer's codes for 18 Pounder cartridge case, and have noted that there are a couple of good references that are quoted (ex Herb Woodend and Ian Skennerton). Any chance of a copy? I am collecting 18Pr cartridge cases for an 18 Pounder gun & limber restoration being undertaken in Sydney Australia, but also collecting 18Pr ammo components generally. In particular, I am wondering if someone can tell me what the markings were for 18Pr cartridge cases made at the National Cartridge Factory Waterford?

Research so far is confined to the list of National Factories Controlled by the Ministry of Munitions Jun15-Nov18. The only place afforded the title of a "National Cartridge Factory" in this list is actually Waterford, with other "Government Cartridge Factories" were for small arms ammo (with well known headstamps anyway). So is it reasonable to assume that Waterford may have been the one and only NCF?

Info I can offer for the greater good is that after the Waterford production line was shut down at the end of WW1, it was procured by the Australian Government at scrap price. The production line was then set up at Footscray in Melbourne as a dedicated cartridge case factory. The first batch of Mk.III cases was made in 1927 marked with the code 'MC'. The 'M' was common to all government factories and was the prefix for all the Munitions Supply Board factories. The 'C' was for Cartridge , and distinguished the line from 'MF' which was the Footscray Small Arms Ammo factory. Shell bodies were made at the Ordnance factory at Maribyrnong (MO), and fuzes were generally ex-UK with the explosives factory (ME) refilling as required. Apart from the unfilled trials batch cases of 1927, the next Footscray production I have seen was Mk.IV cases marked MF in 1941. The MC code by that time was reallocated to the Cartridge Case factory in Cheltenham (Finsbury Park) in South Australia, and is quite a common headstamp seen on 25Pr cases as well as a variety of others like 3.7 AA and Naval 4in.

Any assistance much appreciated,

regards

Damien

[TonyE]

There is no comprehensive list that I know of. There is a list of contractors marks but that only goes up to mid 1916. That may be the one you are thinking of with regards to Herb W and Ian S. and you should be able to find it at the Australian archives.

Post 1916 it is all a bit of guess work regarding makers if they were not already making components when the 1916 list was printed. AFAIK no one has found any official manufacturer's list for the second half of the war, nor a list of contracts for that period either.

Regards

TonyE

[damien allan]

_{Thanks Tony, I will have a look when I get some time.}

_{At the moment, I have scanned the web for pictures of 18Pr headstamps and the haul for a short look was larger than I expected. I was quite impressed by a 1906 Mk.I case with a nice Elswick /EOC monogram, but unfortunately not for sale....}

_{I can remember a huge pile of cheap 18Pr cart cases at Beltring in 2009. Pity I did not go through them then.}

_{Are you aware of any 18Pr shell baskets available ? The odd one or pair come up on ebay, but would die of old age in penury before a limber would be filled up.}

_cheers,

_Damien

[R0bbie]

Hi, I came across this topic while trying to research a shell casing I have. Obviously I can see it’s from 1917, but I was wondering if someone could tell me more about it...

 

 

[peregrinvs]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-Trench-Art-WWI-1917-Brass-12-5-Shell-Case-Casing-Desk-Lamp-Base/324488288035?hash=item4b8d025723:g:-DsAAOSwQ-NgK6vA
 

[R0bbie]

Yep that’s actually mine. I’m trying to research it 

[Chasemuseum]

 Its for a Naval Vickers 3-pounder. The shell case is the Mark III

QF 3-pounder Vickers - Wikipedia

 

 

Original maker KN  - 

broad arrow, military acceptance after manufacture and transfer to War Department ownership

N  Naval

repair for refilling after first use by: RL -  Royal Laboratories 

S - sceleroscope inspection after repair, . nearby is defect repaired 

CFF  - cordite propellant  filled on first filling and on second filling

Lot numbers - original manufacture batch number and subsequent batch number after repair for refilling.

 

Obviously 1917 was the year of initial manufacture of the case.

 

 

 

[R0bbie]

2 hours ago, Chasemuseum said:

 Its for a Naval Vickers 3-pounder. The shell case is the Mark III

QF 3-pounder Vickers - Wikipedia

 

 

Original maker KN  - 

broad arrow, military acceptance after manufacture and transfer to War Department ownership

N  Naval

repair for refilling after first use by: RL -  Royal Laboratories 

S - sceleroscope inspection after repair, . nearby is defect repaired 

CFF  - cordite propellant  filled on first filling and on second filling

Lot numbers - original manufacture batch number and subsequent batch number after repair for refilling.

 

Obviously 1917 was the year of initial manufacture of the case.

 

 

 

 

Excellent! That’s really helpful. 

 

 

[MikeyH]

Chasemuseum's 'helpful' response has been tacked on to the ebay listing.

 

Mike.

 

 

[Chasemuseum]

On 17/02/2021 at 20:54, MikeyH said:

Chasemuseum's 'helpful' response has been tacked on to the ebay listing.

 

Mike.

 

 

 

 

Actually it was not. Although the auction has closed, follow the links back to the original listing and it was not provided with the extra data.

 

Even if it had been I would still have been happy to help as much as I could. I do not want to be "mined" for information as a free "expert", but it is proper to provide some assistance when appropriate. There are some members on this forum that have some serious issues and should seek assistance.

[R0bbie]

4 hours ago, Chasemuseum said:

 

 

Actually it was not. Although the auction has closed, follow the links back to the original listing and it was not provided with the extra data.

 

Even if it had been I would still have been happy to help as much as I could. I do not want to be "mined" for information as a free "expert", but it is proper to provide some assistance when appropriate. There are some members on this forum that have some serious issues and should seek assistance.

 

The information you provided was fantastic! I appreciate it very much. Knowing absolutely nothing about shell casings as I do, I thought it made perfect sense to seek the advice of someone who clearly does. I did add a screenshot of the information you provided to the listing, but I didn’t include it in title or item description. I hope you don’t feel like I was taking advantage of your knowledge, I just like to be accurate when selling something.

[Guest]

On 16/01/2014 at 21:43, Guest timmy_tarmac said:

Thanks for your info tony and auchon. As to CRY couldn't find info on them could it be "Contractor RY". I have found a little more info about AE & SONS they joined ICI with kynochs in 1926/29 so they may have done some work on the shells originally might have had a surplus to turn into ashtrays but can't find any pictures anywhere or items for sale that match my item I might sell it but only with a reserve. Thanks for your help guys

Hi guys

Re: CRY stamp.

I dont know if this will help but I have a 18Pr casing 1914 that clearly has a stamp  'GRY' ... I don't know what it means but for someone in the know it maybe worth searching for GRY not CRY.

Good luck

Baconegg

 

[peregrinvs]

The case has been reloaded and I believe the GRY marking means it was reconditioned at the Great Western Railway workshops.

[Guest]

Thanks Peregrinvs

The final piece if the puzzle answered.

A little history if my casing:

As a young lad, I did regular gardening for an elderly gentleman at an old house called Inchbroom.

Another gentleman rented the ground floor of this spectacular house.

He was a Brigadier on retirement but was a senior officer of a British Punjabi regiment. Can't recall his surname or the exact regiment now.

In 1985 the Brigadier took ill and went to a care home.

The family seemingly moved the majority of his belongings but left behind the 18 pr casing, a pair of brass stirrups (odd sizes) and a pair if old military riding boots.

When I showed intrest in the casing, the owner of the property said my younger brother and I could have it.

It's been in my possession ever since.

Will speak to my brother and see if he recalls the Brigadiers name.

Thanks again for interpreting the GRY stamp.

 

[peregrinvs]

You’re welcome and thanks for the story.

You may have already worked out the other markings, but if not it’s a MkII 18 Pounder cartridge case made by Kynoch (K) in 1914. It was inspected and passed by inspector 41 on the 8th April 1915 and was loaded with a full charge. (CF) It was reloaded with a full charge (F) and was annealed (A) and tested with a scleroscope. (S.) It has a No.1 MkII primer made in September 1915 by Vickers Sons & Maxim. (VSM)

[18pdr]

I think this 18pdr shell has 3 dates of 06, 06 and then 4/08 on the primer.  EOC Elswick and most of the marks I have been able to determine from previous information on this site or other internet detail. I found it in a paddock 35 yrs ago and has been a door stopper ever since hence the slightly shiny base but is in good condition. I am a bit confused by a stamp at 11.00o'clock  "C25".  The "C" looks the same or similar to the CF F as in Cordite.  Several other stampings I have not seen on other examples. ** maybe this is related to what would seem to be 2 reloadings or loadings  as in CF and second F. A repair, testing  "S"and annealing "A". Another "A" Within circle and two horizontal lines ( perhaps rejected). several other numbers and symbols and usual arrows. MC is that Australian, ( too early I thought) x in a circle?

Pls see photos.Att. 

I hope this is of interest for help to others. If the date is correct this is very early from my understanding and I haven't seen anything this old posted.

[peregrinvs]

Interesting case. A * marking after the Mark numeral usually denotes that it has been modified in some way - so presumably twice in this case. As it has various reload / test / inspection markings, I would expect they relate to these. In my own collection I have a pre-WWI MkI case like this that was reloaded in WWI with a MkII shell. However, it doesn’t have a * symbol after the MkI marking.

[18pdr]

If the 4/08 is the most recent date  there is "11" on the primer. MK?

C25  and some of the other markings I am still unsure on, but maybe it is a reduced charge even though the other is CF and F. In that this is here I wonder if any markings are Australian in origin. As yet I have not found any reports of manufacture or reloading of these here until much later post 1919. Possibly not until 1927 at what had been the Waterford production line relocated to Melbourne. I will keep looking. Thanks for your input.