Commemorated in Basra - but should it be Helles?

[Stephen Nulty]

Pte 11699 Sam Tomlinson and Private 2485 Charles Mitchell died on 9^th and 10^th August 1915 respectively while serving with 6^th South Lancs.

At that time, the Battalion was fighting in Gallipoli. Most of the other men who fell on those dates are commemorated on the Helles Memorial, and yet CWGC has these two men commemorated on the Basra Memorial.

6^th South Lancs didn’t arrive in Mesopotamia until 29^th February 1916, so could anybody explain why they are commemorated in Basra and not Helles?

(Incidentally, both have “Mesopotamia” as their ‘Death Location’ on SDGW)

[Guest]

I suspect there is a typo or a transcription error and they died in 1916 in Mesopotamia rather than 1915 in Gallipoli.

MG

[SFayers]

Since the battalion arrived in Gallipoli at the begining of August 1915 it would seem pretty unlikely these men could have died in Mesopotamia only a few days later. As Martin says, it's most likely a transcription error.

Cheers

Steve

[Stephen Nulty]

Thanks for the replies.

To be honest, transcription error was my first thought but both are 1915 deaths on CWGC and SDGW.

Tomlinson has 'MPD about 9/8/15' on his MIC

Mitchell has 'MPD 10/8/15' on his card.

Any other suggestions?

[keithmroberts]

To check it out you could order a death certificate. That would almost certainly be clear about the location. I'm not aware of any other certain way of finding the answer, assuming that neither has anything helpful surviving in Ancestry. The local papers of their home areas might have death reports, but possibly quite well delayed.

Keith

[Stephen Nulty]

Thanks Keith

I'll email CWGC and ask for their views first. Will report back.

[spof]

Stephen

I know this dosen't help but....

Name: MITCHELL, Charles

Unit:South Lancashire Regiment

Rank:Private

Number:2485

Year: 1915

Volume : I.23

Page: 225

Record source: GRO War Death Army Other Ranks (1914 to 1921)

Name: TOMLINSON, Samuel

Unit:South Lancashire Regiment

Rank:Private

Number:11699

Year: 1916

Volume : I.23

Page: 252

Record source: GRO War Death Army Other Ranks (1914 to 1921)

[Stephen Nulty]

Interesting that Tomlinson is shown as 1916........

[Guest]

Tomlinson Service Record

Missing Presumed to have died. 9/8/1915

Place not stated

Cause Presumed to have died

10/9/1915 Missing in Action Gallipoli 9/8/1915

Mike

[SFayers]

The dates of death look correct then, so in that case it looks like they should be comemorated at Helles then. The only scenario I can think of as to why they are on the Basra memorial is that they were transported from Gallipoli to Mesopotamia as PoWs and either died there or enroute and had no known grave, but given the timeframe this would seem highly unlikely.

cheers

Steve

[keithmroberts]

Whoops

I assumed that Ancestry had been checked and had no service record. No question, he was posted to the BEF Med, sailed on SS Ausonia, and was reported missing presumed killed in Gallipoli. Well done Mike.

Keith

[spof]

As they were both listed as missing, perhaps the battalion didn't get word from the Turks/Red Cross that the men were dead until they were in Mespot and the paperwork somehow misplaced where they died. I';; be interested to see what CWGC says.

[Stephen Nulty]

Yes, I've dropped them an email asking for info and will update the thread when they reply

[Gully Ravine]

Any update on this please?

[Stephen Nulty]

Sorry, I appear not have added the CWGC response to the thread.

Thank you for your e-mail of 11th April 2013 regarding the commemoration of Private Sam Tomlinson and Private Charles Mitchell on the Basra Memorial.

I understand that you believe the inclusion of your these names on the Basra Memorial to be incorrect. I must explain that the Commission’s records are based on information provided by the relevant Service Authorities after the War, who in turn, based their records on the military information available to them at the time.

The Commission does not hold any details of the circumstances of death of those we commemorate, but it is possible that later information may have been brought to light the fact that the area in which these men lost their lives would have been better represented by inclusion on a different memorial. However, by that time, matters would have been well in hand for their commemoration on the Basra Memorial.

The Commission has of course given much thought to whether changes should now be made to such commemorations for those we commemorate which have stood for well over half a century. We conclude however, that it is not appropriate to do so after so many years, taking into account that the families and descendents of these casualties would have known them to be commemorated on another memorial for so long.

As this is the case, I trust you will appreciate in such instances that the Commission does not seek to remove the names of such large numbers of individuals from one memorial and re-engrave them on another.

As you will appreciate however, the most important thing is that Private Mitchell and Private Tomlinson are commemorated and that their sacrifice will not be forgotten.

Yours sincerely

Enquiries Administrator