What can I learn from this photo?

[eamann]

Hello!

My grandfather Michael Magee is one of the soldiers in this group photo. He joined the Army on 28 April 1915 in Belfast and served in the RASC in the caterpillar section of the mechanical transport division. His regiment No. was M2/081316.

He was posted initially to the 403rd. Mechanical Transport Company. From a previous post I learned that it arrived in France on 16 August 1915 and became the 'Y' Corps "Siege Park" to the II ANZAC Heavy Artillery. In 1917 the II ANZAC Corps was redesignated British XXII Corps Heavy Artillery. The above would seem to indicate that much of Mike's time on the Western Front may have been with Australians and New Zealanders.

As from April 1918 he served in the 604th. Coy which acted as the XV Corps Siege Park and as the Ammunition Park for the 65th. Siege Battery RGA.

He served at various locations on the Western Front.

Is there any hint in this photo as to where it was taken? Is there anything else I can learn from it?

Many thanks to those who share their time and expertise with us!

[Marilyne]

consodering that the whole back is "burnt" , in photographical terms, I don't believe anyone could say anything on this...

Sorry...

[Khaki]

Hi eamonn

The cap badges from what I can see appear to be Army Service Corps (ASC) don't see anything that looks especially ANZAC.

[eamann]

Thank you both for taking time to react to my post. I realised that there was little in the photo which lent itself to identification but you never know... Thank you therefore Khaki for confirming that it is apparently a photo of Michael's ASC unit.

Would the fact that there is a quite steep hill in the background exclude a location in Belgium ("le plat pays")? The fact that the trees do not show any damage also indicates that the photo was taken behind the lines.

[salientguide]

Hi Eamann, what an 'orrible, scruffy looking shower, would give any decent RSM a fit!!

But a great photo of a company of NCOs (corporals and a lance) and men. Interesting fashion note, nearly all have removed the wire cap shaper from inside the rim of the army cap allowing them to shape them into a personal shape and wear at a personalised jaunty angle. Chap third from right front has almost converted his into a civilian cap. Interesting feature of how men even in the most conformist of enforced military society sought to keep and express their individuality. Joking aside they look a bit grubby in working gear, probably warm as several are in their army undershirts or vests, other ranks did not wear shirts as such.Looks like summer as trees in leaf. Lack of puttees again emphasises this is a behind the lines unit. All look fairly relaxed and happy so probably work finished for the day.

Where it is unable to say bit a great photo a true moment in time captured.

Thanks for sharing it SG

[eamann]

Thank you very much, Salientguide, for those additional comments! It helps to put some flesh on the bare bones of a medal card and three photos and makes it more human and personal! Thanks!

[PhilB]

And 10 of them are smoking out of 34! Maybe packets that had fallen off the back of the lorries they were driving.

[Anneca]

Wonderful photograph to have. I don't see anything that would suggest ANZAC but certainly ASC cap badges. Looking at the photograph in detail do I detect guy ropes that would suggest a tent in the background - and taken in the summer? Great photo, thank you for sharing and sorry I have no further suggestions.

Anne

[eamann]

Thank you Phil and Anne for your additional comments.

You are correct Anne in saying that there is a big white tent in the background and that the photo was taken in the summer. I note that you are from Co. Down. My grandfather was a Belfast man. You can see a photo of him with his father, both of them in uniform, on this other thread

 

 

I wonder if there were many fathers and sons serving at the same time?

Éamann

[Anneca]

Hi Eamann

The photo you have of your Grandfather and G.Grandfather on the other thread is wonderful. When we think of our Grandfathers, we tend to think they have always been old, but looking at this photo reminds us that the man was not only young but handsome as well. You are fortunate to have this, captured so many years ago, of both your Grandfather and G.Grandfather together. You might want to start another thread, if there isn't one already, to see if there were many Fathers and Sons serving at the same time and find if there are photos of them together - would be interesting.

From roughly 1860 to 1920 painted photography backdrops were a standard feature of early photography studios and presumably each studio would have different backgrounds. Many photographs would have been taken against the same backdrop in the studio where your photo was taken, and I would imagine, if it was in Belfast, someone with an old photo taken in the same place may recognise it.

My Grandfather was also a Belfast man. He was in the RAOC, served in Egypt and survived, to die in the 50s. I have one photo of him and have checked the background but unfortunately it is different to yours.

Anne

[Muerrisch]

Hi Eamann, what an 'orrible, scruffy looking shower, would give any decent RSM a fit!!

But a great photo of a company of NCOs (corporals and a lance) and men. Interesting fashion note, nearly all have removed the wire cap shaper from inside the rim of the army cap allowing them to shape them into a personal shape and wear at a personalised jaunty angle. Chap third from right front has almost converted his into a civilian cap. Interesting feature of how men even in the most conformist of enforced military society sought to keep and express their individuality. Joking aside they look a bit grubby in working gear, probably warm as several are in their army undershirts or vests, other ranks did not wear shirts as such.Looks like summer as trees in leaf. Lack of puttees again emphasises this is a behind the lines unit. All look fairly relaxed and happy so probably work finished for the day.

Where it is unable to say bit a great photo a true moment in time captured.

Thanks for sharing it SG

I don't understand this reference at all. What about the greyback issue? without collar, yes, but a shirt none the less, surely. There are several in the photo.

[salientguide]

I don't understand this reference at all. What about the greyback issue? without collar, yes, but a shirt none the less, surely. There are several in the photo.

Terminology perhaps? Other ranks did not wear a shirt as I would call or recognise it; ie a garment split down the front, fastened by buttons, usually of linen or cotton material and with a collar, fastened on by studs if necessary and most importantly worn with a tie at all times.The garments visible in the photo are the standard one piece rather thick and itchy woollen undershirt issued to all other ranks. Linen or cotton shirts, of the correct khaki colour, collars and ties were worn by officers only. Sadly this was one way of telling if unidentified remains exhumed or found after the war were those of an unknown officer or soldier for recording on headstones. SG

[Muerrisch]

Terminology perhaps? Other ranks did not wear a shirt as I would call or recognise it; ie a garment split down the front, fastened by buttons, usually of linen or cotton material and with a collar, fastened on by studs if necessary and most importantly worn with a tie at all times.The garments visible in the photo are the standard one piece rather thick and itchy woollen undershirt issued to all other ranks. Linen or cotton shirts, of the correct khaki colour, collars and ties were worn by officers only. Sadly this was one way of telling if unidentified remains exhumed or found after the war were those of an unknown officer or soldier for recording on headstones. SG

Those members of my sort of age would have seen our fathers and grandfathers wearing shirts of exactly that spec.:no intrinsic collar, opening only briefly down the front, and with a long tail at the back. Shirts they indeed were. Always long sleeves, to be rolled up, with trouser legs, at the water's edge. I do not understand what an undershirt is/ was ...... perhaps what my generation would call a vest?

Interestingly, neither shirts nor vests were specified in Clothing Regs 1914, although drawers are. Edit, but see my later amendment below please.

I commend in this respect a book that I have elsewhere maligned : Bodsworth's British Uniforms and Equipment etc, pp .79 et seq

[eamann]

Hi Eamann

You might want to start another thread, if there isn't one already, to see if there were many Fathers and Sons serving at the same time and find if there are photos of them together - would be interesting.

Anne

That's a good idea Anne. Here's the new thread. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=193221

Eamann

[Frank_East]

As regards the Royal Air Force of old..shirts blue..issue 2 (off) collarless plus 2 (off) detached collars per shirt.Shirts and collars identified by name and service number by individual using indelible black ink.(not on service issue)

Studs not supplied...collar stud for front top and back stud at nape of neck.

Split front shirts must have been introduced early post war and reflected the change in fashion.I do remember those who worked in an office type environment or would be regarded as being in the professions, wearing detached collar shirts with the traditional shirt at work.The traditional shirt with a detached collar shirt was the normal attire for the well turned out masses....some even wore a skeleton type shirt on which was breast mounted, a high quality shirt front complete with a detached collar.

Had a colleague who joined the Royal Air Force in the early 1930s and spoke of the bind in wearing puttees.With regard to the wearing of uniforms,my experience was that the majority of servicemen would wear their uniform, pushing the boundaries of acceptance until they ran into the SWO man (RAF)....most wore an civilian undergarment such as a pullover,perhaps knitted by a loved one,to combat the cold winters when exposed in the open on an airfield.

I am sure that all servicemen down the ages,adapted their uniform to suit fashion or environment.

[Muerrisch]

I could not believe that shirts were not in Clothing Regs and went back for a proper look.

They are in Table XVI, Necessaries.

Mounted services were issue 3 shirts, flannel, with the exception of Household Cavalry who had 2 vests in lieu.

Dismounted also had 3 shirts.

[Khaki]

As already noted, a summer photo, tree's in leaf, clothing etc, the ground looks hard and dry and would suggest to me that it has been hot for some time probably mid summer, what month would that be for F & F?

khaki

[KevinBattle]

As previously noted they are suggestions of guy ropes at each side of the photo, but they don't appear to meet at anything like the right angle for one tent.

A white tent would also seem much too conspicuous for F&F even in rear areas....?

I'm also struggling to decipher what could be the word "Squadron" (in capital letters) level with the corporals stripes on the left (as we look at it) of the photo.

It might just be a coloured stripe on the canvas though.

No sign of any shadow, nor anyone screwing their eyes from looking towards the sun, so perhaps overcast, rather than brilliant sunshine.

Clothing looks very well worn on most of them, and strain looks to have carved deeply into some expressions but on the whole they look happily relaxed in each others company, NCO and men alike.

No sign of any medal ribbons but my guess would be late war and perhaps not even in F&F...

... but what do I know?

[rolt968]

The uniforms are interesting. Someone has already commented on the caps with the stiffening removed (rather than the true soft cap from a bit later).

There is an interesting mixture of SD jackets and economy "simplified" SD jackets. That might give a clue for dating but it is possible that the men have just stopped work and have been wearing old simplified jackets for work and have SD jackets for best, particularly as one of the simplified jackets seems to have faded. It is interesting that there don't seem to be any later versions of the cap.

Roger.