Officers uniforms & equipment

[Chris480_9]

I may have imagined it but I seem to remember, years ago, seeing a photo of a group of officers in the front line. None were wearing cuff -title tunics; all wore what looked like standard 08 webbing and were carrying rifles. not a Sam Brown in sight ! Is there any evidence that they did this or was the photo just wrongly titled? Given the expected short life span of ,particularly, junior officers in action, some measures to stop them standing out like sore thumb would appear sensible.

[Chris Henschke]

Web Equpiment for Infantry Officers (GRO 4289)

It has been decided that Infantry officers shall wear equipment (web or bandolier) as worn by their men. The issues, which will be free, should be made as far as possible from equipment recovered from casualties (12.12.14)

[Chris480_9]

Thanks for this, had no idea it was subject of a general order, though it makes good sense. Is there any evidence for officers wearing the same 02 tunic as the men they commanded? No idea where I saw the photo I spoke about above but they certainly weren't wearing the cuff rank tunic and think it was too early for the epaulette rank version.

[scottmarchand]

Oh yes indeed they wore 02 tunics. This was in effort to make officers less conspicuous to targeted enemy action. Although they were often referred to as 'wind up' or 'funk' jackets and did rub some officers the wrong way as they felt it inferred cowardice. I have a privately tailored one to a Manchesters' subaltern, 2 Lt. Francis Cuthbert Horn 4th Manchesters', [attached 2nd Worcesters] 92 Inf Bde. Died 28 May, 1918.

[Chris480_9]

Thanks Scott, you've confirmed something I was pretty sure was the case for the reasons you say. Were they doing this from about the same time as the above GRO came out? Beautiful jacket btw. Would the "funk jackets" have been private purchase or scrounged from somewhere? Also, where would the have got the "pips", No. 1 Dress, maybe? Might they have cut them off the cuff-title uniform?

[martin_sole]

Great tunic.

Is it made of serge wool or something posher?

[Steven Broomfield]

Web Equpiment for Infantry Officers (GRO 4289)

It has been decided that Infantry officers shall wear equipment (web or bandolier) as worn by their men. The issues, which will be free, should be made as far as possible from equipment recovered from casualties (12.12.14)

Only a Civil Servant could try and make someone grateful for not charging for dead men's equipment.

[daggers]

Watts label: is that the costume hire firm in Manchester?

[scottmarchand]

Daggers! thank you - I had wondered about the unnamed second label below the actual makers label, a costumers makes a lot of sense, plenty of original kit was preserved by this trade over the decades..

Martin - it is somewhat in between material wise, not as crappy as standard 02 serge, but not as smooth and fine as typical officers bespoke material.

Chris - I think this here as a private purchase is maybe more common than thought, he was after all a 2 Lt., he may have had more means than others. My understanding is that officers were permitted to draw these from stores, use for specific purposes like raids, offensives, high risk areas and then revert to standard SD but retain the funk jacket for when required. But they were under no obligation to have their own made. I would not be surprised if some of the more enterprising officers kit suppliers had these 'off the peg' and ready to go. Pips are ubiquitous - every housewife kit or batman would have had them around and available for repair or replacement. Sort of like extra buttons etc. In this case my feeling is that before leaving the trenches they may have been pocketed otherwise cross straps etc. may have knocked them off. It wouldn't surprise me to see worsted fabric pips applied to the epaulettes too.

In any case, it is a rare item and one of the few I have ever come across that I am convinced is legitimate and not made up to appeal to collectors. It is one of my collection favourites as it was really in the thick of it at some point.

[Chris480_9]

Thanks again, Scott, this is all invaluable and fascinating information. From this, I'm starting to think that the popular image of the subaltern in the trench in the run-up to zero hour with a revolver in one hand, whistle in the other, eye on watch, might be a bit of a myth. Talking of revolvers, would they have carried these in action? If so, where and how? There's not a whole lot of space round the waistbelt once everything's been tacked onto it, if they were carrying the same equipment as their men. Maybe they would leave off the small pack and entrenching tool, etc, which would give more space. Would they have carried bayonets as a general rule?

[wainfleet]

Chris - certainly not a myth. There are plenty of photos of officers wearing cuff rank tunics with Sam Browne equipment in the front line. A few years ago the bodies of four officers were found, revolvers in hand, all killed by the same shell - or perhaps, horribly, buried alive while waiting to go over the top. Practice varied depending on your unit and sometimes your personal preference. It was an order for Guards officers always to wear men's jackets for an attack, though I am not sure whether this extended to being in trenches as well.

[scottmarchand]

Chris, indeed - that vast majority of officers wore the standard service dress into battle. The wind up was as I mentioend before for particular reasons and usually as part of orders for the operation as being a noted exception to expected orders of dress. The reason so few survive si that they were typically turned back into stores or ragged when worn out, like all the other 02 SD worn by the men. The vast majoprity of jackets that turn up were demob outfits and were less likely to have been worn in the line. Clothing in the line was usually pretty fetid and didn't last long and was not somethign you'd want to have on your back if you could avoid it.

[Chris480_9]

No hard and fast rules then. Clothing survival, historically, is quite interesting. It's received wisdom, based on the fact that a lot of old clothing won't fit most of us, that "they were all smaller in those days". However, in the Leeds Armoury, you can find armour to fit pretty much anybody, tall, short, fat, thin. Whereas, dietary deficiencies probably DID lead to stunted growth in some cases, there were plenty of the population who grew to what we might recognise as "normal height". Some, but relatively few, attained above that. The reason why most surviving historical clothing will only fit small people or children is, in my opinion, that this is that sizes more recogniseable to us, were actually the norm, worn, passed on, repaired and, simply wore out.

Thanks Scott and Wainfleet for your help in this thread. I'm very new to all this and although I've had an interest (passion, you might say), for military history all my life, I've only just started to explore The Great War as a topic, very quickly realising I don't know much. So, if I ask lots of daft questions (of which there will be many in future), please forgive me.

[Joe Sweeney]

Wasn't J Compton Sons and Webb Ltd incorporated in Oct 1922? Before that they were known as J Compton and Sons?

Joe Sweeney

[Joe Sweeney]

GT,

Somewhere I recall that J Compton and Sons was incortorated in 1899 with the Webb merger in Oct 1922--Although I can't find my source other than notes.

In the London and Wiltshire directories for 1915 J Compton and Sons is listed and I could find no J Compton Sosn and Webb in any other directory.

http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/pageviewer.asp?pnum=136&zoom=-r%2B100&dn=BCL13004Ctif&fn=

http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/pageviewer.asp?pnum=351&zoom=-r%2B100&dn=WIL18010tif&fn=

Joe

[Andrew Upton]

1899 I think Joe. The 1922 one seems to be a subsidiary. As best as I can tell using a phone. Will double check on PC later. Cheers, GT.

The 1899 date is mentioned on the following site:

https://www.duedil.c...nd-webb-limited

Which states - "J Compton, Sons and Webb Limited was registered on 27 Jul 1899 with its registered office in Derbyshire." However, I believe the inclusion of Webb in this to be in error, and the date purely a reference to when the then J Compton and Sons business became a limited company (with the later Webb addition added erroneously).

GT, Somewhere I recall that J Compton and Sons was incortorated in 1899 with the Webb merger in Oct 1922--Although I can't find my source other than notes. In the London and Wiltshire directories for 1915 J Compton and Sons is listed and I could find no J Compton Sosn and Webb in any other directory.

An earlier post on the GWF as to the marking "J Compton, Sons and Webb" being post-war a few years ago prompted me to do a little bit of digging into the matter.

The firm still exists today of sorts as "CW Headdress Ltd" (formerly "Compton Webb Headress"), since 1996 part of the Christys' empire (famous for their Police headgear). They have a website, and in their history it lists the following:

http://www.christys-hats.com/pages/cw

"C.W Headdress before Christys'

J. Compton Sons and Webb began trading in the 1930s, and had a name change to Compton (my edit) Sons and Webb after the Second World War, although was still referred to as J Compton Sons and Webb until 1978 when it was bought out." I think the 30's date given here seems to stem from when the full naming became more commonly known, and not when it first appeared (which seems to fit the 20's date).

More importantly, even as late as 1921 the London Street Directory/London Street Listings Index listing for Old Ford Road gives "404 to 422 - Compton J and Sons Ltd, army clothiers" - no mention of Webb at all.

[Grovetown]

The 1899 date is mentioned on the following site:

https://www.duedil.c...nd-webb-limited

Which states - "J Compton, Sons and Webb Limited was registered on 27 Jul 1899 with its registered office in Derbyshire." However, I believe the inclusion of Webb in this to be in error, and the date purely a reference to when the then J Compton and Sons business became a limited company (with the later Webb addition added erroneously).

Duedil's ('Due Diligence's') "erroneous" inclusion is only one it has reproduced from Companies House.

http://wck2.companie...uk//compdetails

I agree that there is something wrong with the way this company is being reported - I think the confusion arises whereby Companies House (who might reasonably be treated as the organisation of authority in such things) records the name as the last iteration of a firm, but its date of formation as that of the original.

Cheers,

GT.

[Grovetown]

The above link has timed out: herewith an image of the Companies House entry.

[Muerrisch]

Only a Civil Servant could try and make someone grateful for not charging for dead men's equipment.

Naughty Broomers.

That is a snide comment in my opinion.

The decision was rational and thrifty at a time when the country was severely stretched. As you well know, the first thing any sensible soldier did when wounded was discard his accoutrements and weapons.

Retrieving the webbing and pouches of the dead was also important as a source of ammunition, and a reflex action for a trained soldier.

Perhaps I am unduly sensitive as an ex-Civil Servant of 41 years SERVICE.

[squirrel]

Have seen several mentions of men obtaining webbing and other equipment from the battlefield and also from piles of stuff left outside dressing stations - webbing equipment was particularly sought after by those who had been issued with leather equipment.

[Guest JoolsMc]

My great-grandfather was John Compton, who founded J. Compton & Sons. He started his business after travelling out to the Crimea to make tunics, coats and hats for the British Army officers serving there. The first factory was in Swindon, where J. Compton's were one of the biggest employers of women. In 1922 they became J. Compton. Sons & Webb, setting up a factory in Ford Rd, Hackney, which employed over 5,000 people. John Compton's two eldest sons were killed during WWII (my grandfather, Capt. PPF Compton, East Surrey Regt., who died on the Beirut to Damascus road in 1941, having survived the rearguard action at St. Valery/Dunkirk, where he fought alongside the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and was injured, becoming one of the last BEF officers to be evacuated back to Britain; and his brother Paul, an aviator who was killed in Malaya). After my grandfather's death, and as part of a settlement, my grandmother received company shares, which she later inexplicably sold. The selling of those shares outside of the family allowed Coates Viyella to take a controlling stake. Coates Viyella were then bought out by St. Dupont and they in turn were taken over by Courtaulds, who eventually sold off many of the smaller businesses within the original Coates Viyella portfolio.

Fast forward 30 years and my younger brother and I began making enquiries about buying back the family business. We discovered the company had offices in Worcester but didn't appear to be trading. Having made contact with the parent company and enquired about the possibility of buying back the company we received no response at all. A year or so after our initial enquiries we decided to make another attempt at contacting the owner. At that point we discovered that the company had been dissolved. We therefore decided to reregister J.Compton Sons & Webb and are now working to reestablish the business in the East End of London, as a retailer of British-made, traditional fine quality military jackets and coats. Since reregistering the company we have reconnected with one of the original suppliers of our cloth (who have been providing military textiles since the Napoleonic wars), and are now looking to acquire the original cutting pattern books on which our products will be based. Furthermore, we are interested in buying back old J. Compton Sons & Webb products for our archives and collection, so if you own any of our old jackets or coats and would be willing to sell, my brother and I would be delighted to hear from you.

[Andrew Upton]

My great-grandfather was John Compton, who founded J. Compton & Sons.

Welcome to the GWF, and what a fascinating post. It's great to hear from the horses mouth further confirmation of the year Compton and Webb merged - there are still a number of collectors who fail to realise (or accept, in some cases) that an item bearing this mark cannot possibly date from the Great War in spite of whatever provenance might have become attached to it. I hope the re-establishment goes well, as Compton/Webb was a key supplier of both military and Police kit, which crosses both my collecting interests. I hope the following is of interest:

http://postimg.org/image/b1lc15drz/full/

[wainfleet]

+1 to Andrew's post. What a praiseworthy venture, and I also wish you every success. Be prepared though, you may be deluged with offers of JCS&W items! There are usually some on ebay at any one time. Edited to add: mostly postwar, I should have said.

[FROGSMILE]

All good luck to you JoolsMc. I have a soft spot for your family's company. When Army issue berets were still British made in the 1970s most were made by Kangol, but by far the best quality we found were the stocks of the then Compton Webb that still existed in small stockpiles. We would 'swop' all kinds of things to get hold of one. They had a smaller crown and shaped up well after washing, a ritual for every new recruit.

[Guest Milcoll]

Not sure how this works.

This is to JoolsMc.

I have a Woman's uniform. Has a tag inside jacket that I can partially read. Overalls. Denim Blouse. Contract no. (Can't read number). Size no. 8. 3 lines of measurements and then J. Compton Sons, Webb Ltd. then a date. 19X0. X looks like 4,6 or 8. The Jacket is a belted battle jacket type and also has a shirt that has buttons that attach the short pants (also included)to it. I am a military collector and have had this for years but not sure what it is. I have photos but not sure how to attach. Let me know if interested.